Newbie question: Delta or Cartesian?

My first question here so please be gentle!

I'm entirely new to 3D printing but am reading a lot at present. I want to buy a 3D printer to produce high resolution prints - quality like this would be great [forums.reprap.org] - in sizes up to about 200 x 150 x 100mm. The items will be mostly organic shapes and surface detail is more important than actual resolution.

There are a bewildering number of types and models of printers available so I thought I'd start with the overall layout or design - Cartesian or Delta? I've searched this forum but haven't found a clear answer so I have a few related questions:

- what are the inherent benefits and disadvantages of each design?
- Is each type better suited to particular purposes / types of printing?
- does either offer inherently better resolution?
- is either better supported?
- is either better for a beginner to start with?

Apologies, that became quite a list but hopefully you'll see what I'm trying to do - gather information to help me make the right choice.

Thanks in advance!

Richard

Richard,

As you wrote above, there are dozens of 3D printer designs and there are conflicting opinions on these designs regarding all your questions.

But first, let us address the print quality issue: in theory, all 3D printer designs are capable of good print quality. In practice, it very much depends on how well they are built, how well they are calibrated and your knowledge and skill to properly adjust slicer settings and print settings for each different object you are going to print. Cartesian, CoreXY or linear delta designs are all equivalent from this point of view.

Now, just my $0.02 when it comes to the best build-it-yourself RepRap printer for beginners: without any doubt, the Prusa i3 or any of its variants is hard to beat. In particular, the P3Steel variant. Check the wiki for more information. Also, there is a section of the forum dedicated to the Prusa i3 and variants, where you can get specific support for these 3D printers.

Thank you, Andrew!

I have been considering the Prusa i3 range - and have only recently found the Prusa P3 Steel, as well as a Cherry Pi III and these were behind my query.

My knowledge is currently low but I'm experienced in 3D engineering drawing, reasonably experienced in programming and computer languages and have good mechanical knowledge so I'm confident that with a few pointers I'll pick it all up quickly.

Thanks again.

Richard

For high resolution prints I would suggest a hotend with interchangeable size nozzles such as the E3D. Prints of the quality in your link take a long time and you may want to change things around while working out the best balance between speed and quality. I don't see a real difference in quality between cartesian and delta print quality having used both.
Factors in the choice would be your location and budget.

Thanks, Ralph.

Location is UK, budget is as little as necessary!

I'm prepared to experiment and work to get good prints like that - but I didn't want to start on the wrong foot, if you like.

Richard

Easy answer... Build'em both...

I built a Mendel90 with a kit from nophead [forums.reprap.org] and a Kossel mini from [www.think3dprint3d.com] .
Both work well and customer service is excellent.
The Mendel90 needs a bit of adaptation to work with an E3D hotend.
The Kossel mini comes with the E3D so I would recommend that one. The print quality is excellent for small details:


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2015 12:52PM by Ralph.Hilton.

Quote
madmike8
Easy answer... Build'em both...

Sounds like a good idea, Mike!......but which one first?

Richard

Quote
Ralph.Hilton
I built a Mendel90 with a kit from nophead [forums.reprap.org] and a Kossel mini from [www.think3dprint3d.com] .
Both work well and customer service is excellent.
The Mendel90 needs a bit of adaptation to work with an E3D hotend.
The Kossel mini comes with the E3D so I would recommend that one. The print quality is excellent for small details:

s1361.photobucket.com

Thanks, Ralph. Useful information. I'll have a look at both.

Richard

I'm leaning towards buying a full kit, ideally the P3Steel. The only P3Steel kit I can find in Europe is this one [www.kitprinter3d.com]

Am I missing alternate suppliers? Is this a good starting kit?

Would I be better off buying components or kits of components (e.g. frame, electronics) separately and assembling it? If so, where can I find a full list of requirements for this type of non-kit build?

Thanks.

Richard

There is a BOM in the wiki for the P3Steel, and unsurprisingly it is quite similar to the BOM for the original Prusa i3, except for the frame parts, obviously.

I have seen the kitprinter3d kit and it's not bad, they also have an illustrated assembly guide on their website so you have a good idea of what you have to do.

You'll save some money if you buy just the steel frame and source the other parts by yourself, and although it certainly takes a little bit of work to put everything together, it's exactly the same for any DIY RepRap 3D printer.

Thanks very much, Andrew. For some reason I was battling to get to the wiki last night so I couldn't find that. I'll go and review now.

Richard

Hi Rich,

I have the P3 Steel kit from kitprinter3d and I'm also in the UK (also called Richard too :p)

The kit delivery was fast (from Spain) - maybe 2 days max with tracking. The instructions on the wiki are great - so many kits don't have instructions so you need to use information you can find elsewhere. The frame is sturdy, the PLA they provided seems good quality. I went with the e3d hot end, the provided power supply and LCD. All of the screws and parts come in labelled bags.

A few things to note with the kit:

The bed uses 4 linear bearings for the Y-axis, most other variants seem to use 3 which people say gives a better, smoother motion. Having said this, the Y-axis is quite fiddly to build with the belt and getting tensioned properly, however, with some modifications using zip-ties you can get it locked in with no layer slipping / backlash.

The X-axis has caused me the most hassle. Where the belt joins the carriage was a nightmare to do and get tensioned. I have given up and have printed a new x-carriage idler to allow me to tension the belt at the end via a screw.

All in all, I'm not disappointed.

I am in the UK too Richard (Exeter) and have been mulling over exactly the same questions. I was convinced that I would buy a delta but I've come around to thinking that Prusa i3 with an E3D hotend is the best bang for my buck, I was looking at this kit http://semiu.co.uk/product/prusa-i3-complete-kit/ witht he aluminium frame but I am curious as to why the steel frame is top of the recommendations...it it better than the aluminium one?

Quote
BillHall
I am in the UK too Richard (Exeter) and have been mulling over exactly the same questions. I was convinced that I would buy a delta but I've come around to thinking that Prusa i3 with an E3D hotend is the best bang for my buck, I was looking at this kit http://semiu.co.uk/product/prusa-i3-complete-kit/ witht he aluminium frame but I am curious as to why the steel frame is top of the recommendations...it it better than the aluminium one?

Simply put: yes, much better.

Cheers Andrew, maybe I need to get a steel frame then...need to get the best bang for my buck as I said...still with the E3D though right?

Quote
AndrewBCN
Simply put: yes, much better.

Can you not simply put it? Aside from cost and possibly more weight, what advantages does a steel frame give you that an aluminum can't?

Quote
BillHall
Cheers Andrew, maybe I need to get a steel frame then...need to get the best bang for my buck as I said...still with the E3D though right?

The E3D is a very good hotend, but you may want to go with the new E3D Lite to save a few quid (or bucks if you are in the US).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2015 02:38PM by AndrewBCN.

Quote
cdru

Quote
AndrewBCN
Simply put: yes, much better.

Can you not simply put it? Aside from cost and possibly more weight, what advantages does a steel frame give you that an aluminum can't?

It's not just the material that is better suited to the use as a 3D printer chassis (steel vs aluminum), it's also the design of the P3Steel and the manufacturing process (laser cutting). Check the wiki for details.

Really, it would be too long for me to give you all the details, I suggest you build a P3Steel and put it next to a standard single frame Prusa i3 with an aluminum frame, and see for yourself. Day and night.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2015 02:37PM by AndrewBCN.

Quote
psyvision
Hi Rich,

I have the P3 Steel kit from kitprinter3d and I'm also in the UK (also called Richard too :p)

The kit delivery was fast (from Spain) - maybe 2 days max with tracking. The instructions on the wiki are great - so many kits don't have instructions so you need to use information you can find elsewhere. The frame is sturdy, the PLA they provided seems good quality. I went with the e3d hot end, the provided power supply and LCD. All of the screws and parts come in labelled bags.

A few things to note with the kit:

The bed uses 4 linear bearings for the Y-axis, most other variants seem to use 3 which people say gives a better, smoother motion. Having said this, the Y-axis is quite fiddly to build with the belt and getting tensioned properly, however, with some modifications using zip-ties you can get it locked in with no layer slipping / backlash.

The X-axis has caused me the most hassle. Where the belt joins the carriage was a nightmare to do and get tensioned. I have given up and have printed a new x-carriage idler to allow me to tension the belt at the end via a screw.

All in all, I'm not disappointed.

Thanks very much, Richard, this is useful.

Richard

Richard (Exeter), while I can't claim any experience of aluminium or steel framed printers, I believe that the extra mass of steel can only help reduce unwanted movement over the aluminium version - even if the design was exactly the same as the aluminium. As I don't need portability, this extra weight is a benefit.

In addition to that benefit, AndrewBCN confirms my understanding that there are a number of enhancements to the structure that make for easier setup and a sturdier printer. Confirmation of the differences is the smaller set of printed parts for the P3Steel when compared to the aluminium version.

Richard

Yes, I've since had a look at the steel frame...and I see why it might be better than the aluminium version. Looks like its going to be the solid foundation for my first (successful) 3d printer build AndrewBCN, you are credited with the design of the 2.01 frame...do you know where I can buy one?

[Edit]....oops! sorry am I correct to assume that maker shop BCN is conected to you? The 2.01 is out of stock, any idea when you will have more?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2015 04:32PM by BillHall.

There is only one place to buy the 2.01 frame right now, it's a shop here in Barcelona called MakerShopBCN makershopbcn.com/en/

I am not sure whether they still have some frames from the first batch, the production of which I oversaw from lasercutting to zinc-plating and first test assemblies. You'll have to ask them. They also have the 8mm smooth rods cut to the correct length, I think.

For the printed parts you have my various optimized designs on Thingiverse. And I have been working on a new Bowden extruder for the Prusa i3/P3Steel, I have a video on YouTube for it [www.youtube.com], I haven't published the parts for it yet on Thingiverse but I can send you the STLs by PM if you want.

Sent you a pm Andrew

AndrewBCN - Stumbled across your thingiverse page yesterday - some great additions to the P3Steel that I reckon I'll be printing soon!

Great! I am very interested in your feedback about them!

Well, I've done it - I have just ordered one of these [createc3d.com] with a 1.75mm E3D and some PLA.



Thanks to everyone for their help so far! I'm sure I'll have lots more questions......

Richard

It looks a good kit - I think you'll be happy.

The improved X and Y tensioners will be very useful! I also like how the LCD is integrated.

Enjoy

Quote
psyvision
It looks a good kit - I think you'll be happy.

The improved X and Y tensioners will be very useful! I also like how the LCD is integrated.

Enjoy

Agreed. I've been impressed by their support - I had a few questions (surprise, surprise!) and they were quickly and effectively answered in good English despite it being a Spanish company. It was little things like that, plus the integrated display and included power supply and relay that helped me make the decision. Now I can't wait to start 'playing' with it!

Richard

Quote
AndrewBCN

Quote
BillHall
Cheers Andrew, maybe I need to get a steel frame then...need to get the best bang for my buck as I said...still with the E3D though right?

The E3D is a very good hotend, but you may want to go with the new E3D Lite to save a few quid (or bucks if you are in the US).

no way. there is litterally no functional difference between e3d lite and the ebay jhead all metal for $19.95. I have the e3d full v6 and its clogged everytime i use it.