Use of open source designs June 12, 2015 04:23PM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 283 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 12, 2015 04:36PM |
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Re: Use of open source designs June 12, 2015 07:11PM |
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Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 01:31AM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
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Michael Weinberg
To put it simply, you cannot license what you do not have. A license is a conditional permission to use: I grant you the right to make copies of my work as long as you comply with these conditions. If you do not comply with the conditions, then your copies are in violation of my copyright.
However, if there is no copyright, there is no need for permission, and no way to enforce the terms. A license without an underlying right is legally meaningless.
For example, adding a Creative Commons license to a door hinge (a useful object) grants you no legally binding control over anyone who uses that hinge. If someone copies the hinge without complying with the license, there is nothing you can do because the copies do not infringe on any rights.
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 06:17AM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 283 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 10:30AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
What you are asking about is permissible. It is permissible because the GPL does not apply to the design of a 'useful object' like an extruder.
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Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 12:46PM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 396 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 03:04PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
OK, name some. Name something where the functional aspects of a useful object are protected by copyright.Quote
AndrewBCN
I can provide you with thousands of examples of useful designs that are protected by copyright.
Says who? You? I just provided you with a well researched article written by someone who knows what they are talking about, and it stated clearly that No, something like Greg's Wade's Geared Extruder cannot be protected by copyright. Your rebuttal to this is "I do not agree with the article". Well, that is fine if you do not agree with it, but that does not mean you understand intellectual property law. You can believe what you want, but I feel compelled to make at least a little effort to stop you from misleading other forum readers with your incorrect and ill-informed opinions.Quote
AndrewBCN
As for Greg's Wade's Geared Extruder, not only can the design itself be protected by copyright
You don't get it. The GPL does not apply to the design of a functional object. Sure, you can protect the files themselves, but all someone has to do to get around this is to re-write their own OpenSCAD or draw up the design using another CAD package.Quote
AndrewBCN
Read the GPL for more details.
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 03:35PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 288 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 04:50PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 07:23PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
According to several sources, the GPL is not a contract.Quote
AndrewBCN
The GPL license ... is also a contract
I have seen the page you made on Greg's Wade's - it is a nice page. (Just for the record, I am familiar with the history of Greg's Wade's and have made posts on this topic before: see here and here for example.)Quote
AndrewBCN
Specifically, for Greg's Wade's Geared Extruder I did a little bit of research
The answer to this question deals with a concept called "severability". Many examples are discussed in the Weinberg article. Here's a quote from MW:Quote
AndrewBCN
search for "Bauhaus table". Does the design of a Bauhaus table cover its functional aspect?
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Michael Weinberg
In a report accompanying the Copyright Act, Congress explained that it did not intend copyright to protect industrial products that happen to have “aesthetically satisfying and valuable” shapes.
I think this is a minor technicality. The USPTO says this about copyright:Quote
AndrewBCN
on page 2 of his white paper MW states "Copyright covers artistic, creative works." That is his basic premise in fact, and it is wrong.
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USPTO
A copyright protects works of authorship, such as writings, music, and works of art that have been tangibly expressed.
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 10:56PM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 661 |
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§ 102 . Subject matter of copyright: In general
(a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:
(1) literary works;
(2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
(3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
(4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
(5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
(6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
(7) sound recordings; and
(8) architectural works.
(b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.
Re: Use of open source designs June 13, 2015 11:45PM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 396 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 08:51AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 09:17AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 10:10AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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thetazzbot
So what you're saying is, all these people who put this GPL on their "things" are just naive and uninformed lol
Brilliant.
So the copyright/GPL might cover the FILE that the drawing is in (the openscad file) but not the actual implementation/design.
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 11:54AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 02:23PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
I cannot tell if you are joking or being serious, but yes that is exactly what I am saying.Quote
thetazzbot
So what you're saying is, all these people who put this GPL on their "things" are just naive and uninformed
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 02:37PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
I cannot tell if you are joking or being serious, but yes that is exactly what I am saying.Quote
thetazzbot
So what you're saying is, all these people who put this GPL on their "things" are just naive and uninformed
Take for example these things I put on Thingiverse under the GPL: here, here, here, here, here, and here. I used the GPL for these things because I did not want some self-appointed license-policing open sourcer to hassle me because they thought the work was derived from some earlier GPL project. Easy to avoid that mess altogether by clicking the 'GPL' button to begin with. I wonder how much this effect has helped the GPL to propagate in other instances.
I have never expected that the GPL would actually 'protect' my work on Thingiverse, and as soon as I upload something I consider it to be effectively in the public domain.
, because it seems you have some misconceptions about what or who the GPL is supposed to protect. The GPL does not double as a copyright (it is even sometimes called a copyleft exactly for that reason), it basically protects the freedom of others to modify and improve the work that the license applies to.Quote
Matt
"but that does not mean you understand intellectual property law"
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 03:02PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
I am no expert on this, but I steadfastly maintain that my understanding of the GPL is still much much more accurate than yours.Quote
AndrewBCN
because it seems you have some misconceptions about what or who the GPL is supposed to protect
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 03:08PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
... 'protect' my work on Thingiverse, and as soon as I upload something I consider it to be effectively in the public domain.
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 03:22PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 344 |
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AndrewBCN
Indeed that is very exactly the quite ridiculous paradox that can be derived from the arbitrary (and incorrect, imo) distinction between the OpenSCAD source (which is protected by copyright under present copyright laws, and can be licensed under the GPL if the creator/developer of the OpenSCAD source decides so), and the design that it embodies/expresses.
Another paradox is created when you artificially and arbitrarily try to separate a 3D design from its functional aspect, e.g. in the case of the Bahaus tables (which I have provided as examples above). For scores of 3D designs you obviously cannot separate the design from its functionality because the design's raison d'être is very exactly its functionality.
Also saying that any 3D design that has any functionality whatsoever can only be protected by a patent is somewhat ludicrous when one considers the cost of patent registration and patent legal defense, and basically denies any legal protection for the vast majority (something like 99.999%) of all 3D designs with any functionality whatsoever, while providing full copyright protection for any 3D design that has even the smallest bit of aesthetical value - yet another paradox!
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 03:24PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
I am no expert on this, but I steadfastly maintain that my understanding of the GPL is still much much more accurate than yours.Quote
AndrewBCN
because it seems you have some misconceptions about what or who the GPL is supposed to protect
I am glad that you posted Eben Moglen's quote because it actually strengthens my argument. What Prof. Moglen is saying is that the GPL provides no additional protection to the author than does copyright.
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MattMoses
GPL begins with copyright - that is the legal basis.
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MattMoses
The GPL then relaxes or weakens the legal protections guaranteed by copyright. The reason that Michael Weinberg and vegasloki and myself all keep carrying on about copyright is because copyright is the most restrictive, strongest, example of any type of 'license' like GPL or Creative Commons or whatever. All of these licenses derive from copyright. So when we are talking about the maximum possible protection that any of these licenses can provide, we can always talk about copyright because none of these licenses can ever provide more protection than copyright.
Let me say that again just to make sure it sinks in:
The GPL does not provide any more legal protection to an author than does copyright.
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 03:39PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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cristian
If I write some computer program (in C, Java or whatever) and I release it under the GPL, this does not prevent somebody from writing a different program that does the very same thing and release it under a non free licence, provided that he did not copy my program directly. In other words if I release a piece of code under the GPL (or any other licence), I cannot protect the output of the algorithm implemented by that code
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Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 03:40PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 04:10PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 14,672 |
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MattMoses
Let me take a step back, Andrew. Do you agree with the following statement?
If you cannot copyright it, you cannot GPL it.
If you agree with that, our conversation proceeds one way. If not, another way.
I stand firm in my claim that nothing can be GPL'd unless it could also be copyrighted.
The question at hand is: Can a design for an extruder be protected by the GPL?
My position is: No. An extruder design cannot be protected by the GPL.
Here is my argument:
1. You cannot GPL what you cannot copyright.
2. You cannot copyright an extrduer design.
3. Therefore you cannot GPL an extruder design.
Which part(s) of that do you disagree with?
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 04:17PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 344 |
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AndrewBCN
Cristian, thank you for joining in this discussion
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AndrewBCN
and sorry for quoting only the beginning of your post, but I have to ask you to rethink your argument from that point on. The reason I am asking you that, is because like Matt, you seem to be missing the main point of the GPL, which is not to prevent other people from copying your code or re-using it.
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AndrewBCN
If you understand that, you can begin to understand how the GPL can be applied to a 3D design: by licensing your 3D design under the GPL, you guarantee the freedom of users of your design to re-use it, modify it and possibly improve upon it.
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AndrewBCN
Look at what happened to the Prusa i3 after Josef Prusa released it under the GPL, or the Kossel Mini, or Greg's Wade's Geared Extruder, just to mention a few examples from the RepRap universe.
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 04:24PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 14, 2015 04:42PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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cristian
...
(Re)stating something obvious is a bit boring
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cristian
but I accept to do it provided that you try to understand the matter of my intervention. In my understanding, the GPL prevents other people from copying/modifying (my) GPL code and releasing it under a licence not compatible with the GPL. So, if I release something under the GPL, anybody can use it and even modify it provided that the result will again be released under the GPL. But nobody can take the GPL work made by somebody else and release it under closed licence (or modify it without releasing the sources under GPL, etc.). Is it enough as a proof or should I paraphrase the whole licence?
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cristian
...
My whole intervention was on the fact that a computer program (OpenSCAD or whatever) does not properly define a (3D) design, because the definition of a design must contain additional information, even if that code can produce something related to the intended design. Conversely, the program code can contain parts that are necessary for the generation of the intended 3D model, but that do not represent original design. So, again a program is not a design and a design is not a program, reason why a licence enclosed in a program does not automatically apply to whatever design the author of the program meant.
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cristian
I am glad that the spirit of the open source movement is doing well, I would also like to see what legal battles it can survive to. For example, cases where designs already released under open licence were successfully defended in court against "bad" companies trying to patent them.
Re: Use of open source designs June 15, 2015 02:36PM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 396 |
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MattMoses
I cannot tell if you are joking or being serious, but yes that is exactly what I am saying.Quote
thetazzbot
So what you're saying is, all these people who put this GPL on their "things" are just naive and uninformed
Take for example these things I put on Thingiverse under the GPL: here, here, here, here, here, and here. I used the GPL for these things because I did not want some self-appointed license-policing open sourcer to hassle me because they thought the work was derived from some earlier GPL project. Easy to avoid that mess altogether by clicking the 'GPL' button to begin with. I wonder how much this effect has helped the GPL to propagate in other instances.
I have never expected that the GPL would actually 'protect' my work on Thingiverse, and as soon as I upload something I consider it to be effectively in the public domain.