Re: Use of open source designs June 15, 2015 07:01PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 15, 2015 07:45PM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 396 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 15, 2015 07:45PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 344 |
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AndrewBCN
As for the Prusa i3 Rework, I had a rather heated discussion in the French subforum here with the participation of one of the employees or partners of emotion tech (he declined to provide his exact status) and they refuse to even acknowledge that they have been in violation of the GPL for the last two years, and in fact accused me of lying about it and asked the moderator to erase my posts!
The exact thread can be found here: [forums.reprap.org]
Re: Use of open source designs June 15, 2015 09:43PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
Perhaps you can explain the details to us non French speakers?Quote
AndrewBCN
The exact thread can be found here: [forums.reprap.org]
Re: Use of open source designs June 15, 2015 11:20PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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cristian
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AndrewBCN
As for the Prusa i3 Rework, I had a rather heated discussion in the French subforum here with the participation of one of the employees or partners of emotion tech (he declined to provide his exact status) and they refuse to even acknowledge that they have been in violation of the GPL for the last two years, and in fact accused me of lying about it and asked the moderator to erase my posts!
The exact thread can be found here: [forums.reprap.org]
Maybe I missed something, because I don't understand why they behave like that. They release the STL files, which is enough for cheap clones to appear the day after the release, but they don't release the sources, which may help the community to develop and improve the design even further. However the worst part is that most people do not understand the supposed violation of the GPL licence, which means they do not understand the purpose of the licence itself and its importance.
Re: Use of open source designs June 15, 2015 11:28PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
Perhaps you can explain the details to us non French speakers?Quote
AndrewBCN
The exact thread can be found here: [forums.reprap.org]
If they downloaded Prusa's OpenSCAD files, and then re-created Prusa's parts using their own CAD software (Solidworks, for example) they would be under no obligation to release their CAD files. (Unless Prusa's parts had non-functional artistic aspects that were covered by copyright.)
*EDIT: They are however using Prusa's name. If Prusa wanted to, he could probably bust them for that...
Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 12:48AM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
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AndrewBCN
To all effects they have stolen the IP from others and decided to make it proprietary.
If the answer is anything other than "Josef Prusa's files and OpenSCAD" then they have no obligation to release their source, and they are not in violation of the GPL.Quote
thejollygrimreaper
what package did you use to do the step files?
Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 07:57AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 257 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 08:27AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
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Is what they did in violation of the GPL?
It depends. If they created their models by modifying Prusa's OpenSCAD files, and they happen to be sitting on these modified OpenSCAD files and they refuse to release them, then YES they are in violation of the GPL. However! If they re-created their parts in some other CAD format, or if they wrote their own new OpenSCAD files from the ground up, then NO they are not in violation of the GPL.
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Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 08:43AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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kimented_
Hello,
I agree with you MattMose when you say that EmotionTech have the righ to redraw their own models from scratch and diffuse them. Doing so, I think they are not in violation with the original Prusa's files licence.
But they release their own STL under the GPL licence, then they should distribute the source files. If they do not want to distribute the source, they should use another licence, like a creative commons.
However, if they use a mesh based software instead of a parametric, it's a bit pointless to release the "source" files: the mesh is the source (but I know that the STL mesh is uglier than the original format).
Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 10:12AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 11:11AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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cristian
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If I write some computer program (in C, Java or whatever) and I release it under the GPL, this does not prevent somebody from writing a different program that does the very same thing and release it under a non free licence, provided that he did not copy my program directly.
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Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 03:07PM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 1,236 |
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AndrewBCN
I confess I am finding myself in a strange position in this thread when it comes to the GPL, because many people are expressing their opinions about it without having actually read the text of the GPL.
It is much like arguing over the US Constitution with people who have not read it (and its amendments).
So: text of the GNU General Public License V3 (GPL for short).
Please read it. Think about it. Ask questions if there is something you do not understand.
Re: Use of open source designs June 16, 2015 03:58PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
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AndrewBCN
So: text of the GNU General Public License V3 (GPL for short).
Please read it. Think about it. Ask questions if there is something you do not understand.
Edit: before you ask questions about it, read the FAQ!
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GPL FAQ
Can I use the GPL to license hardware?
Any material that can be copyrighted can be licensed under the GPL. GPLv3 can also be used to license materials covered by other copyright-like laws, such as semiconductor masks. So, as an example, you can release a drawing of a physical object or circuit under the GPL.
In many situations, copyright does not cover making physical hardware from a drawing. In these situations, your license for the drawing simply can't exert any control over making or selling physical hardware, regardless of the license you use. When copyright does cover making hardware, for instance with IC masks, the GPL handles that case in a useful way.
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 05:21AM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 283 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 06:34AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 344 |
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MotoBarsteward
I had further discussions with the person who advertised the "Canted Wade's Extruder" for sale. He says that his OpenScad files do not contain any of Wade's or Greg's original code. He described 're-engineering' from the ground up.
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 07:22AM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 283 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 08:08AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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bobc
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You should know that even Richard Stallman has said the GPL does not apply to hardware!
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Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 08:40AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MotoBarsteward
A most interesting discussion! I had further discussions with the person who advertised the "Canted Wade's Extruder" for sale. He says that his OpenScad files do not contain any of Wade's or Greg's original code. He described 're-engineering' from the ground up. Taking the advice from the posters in this thread, I have just read the V3 GPL license. It's quite interesting to see that there are several interpretations within this thread. I guess this is the case because we routinely miss-interpret the license because it's not really written for things. The clue to understanding appears to revolve around the fact that the item is still copyrighted and that GPL acknowledges copyright ownership whilst extending rights to the copier.
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Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 08:43AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 344 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 09:05AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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cristian
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MotoBarsteward
I had further discussions with the person who advertised the "Canted Wade's Extruder" for sale. He says that his OpenScad files do not contain any of Wade's or Greg's original code. He described 're-engineering' from the ground up.
The problem with free software is that anybody not releasing sources may claim to have re-engineered it from the ground up, even if it is not true.
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Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 09:15AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 344 |
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AndrewBCN
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cristian
The problem with free software is that anybody not releasing sources may claim to have re-engineered it from the ground up, even if it is not true.
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Exactly! And that is not a problem only with free software, it is a problem with any intellectual work, free or otherwise.
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AndrewBCN
Ha, cristian, the Orks will not win! (sorry, private joke here)!
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 10:33AM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 11:09AM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 283 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 12:17PM |
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Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 12:52PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
This in no way supports your argument, Andrew. As I said before, I myself license stuff on Thingiverse under the GPL. Just because I click the 'GPL' button does not mean that a) the license is actually valid in that situation, or b) that the license applies to anything other than the files themselves. As dc42 stated earlier in this thread, it still makes sense to use the GPL license on the files, even with the understanding that the design elements are not covered by the license.Quote
AndreBCN
I don't think I am always right, but if I am wrong in this case, at least I am - again, as I already mentioned - in good company, since Josef Prusa, Johann C. Rocholl and Greg Frost licensed their 3D designs under the GPL.
I am in complete agreement with this statement. All along I have said that even though it is legally permissible, it is still not a good thing to do.Quote
AndrewBCN
Imho closing the source of a 3D design is self-defeating in the end, and easily worked around.
It cannot be applied because you are trying to license what you do not have.Quote
AndrewBCN
The GPL is a specific kind of license and I do not see in what way it cannot be applied to a 3D design in the process I described above
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 12:54PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
It is the OpenSCAD file.Quote
MotoBarsteward
Here, we have an issue because it's not clear what is being copyrighted in the first place. Is it the OpenScad file? Is it the object produced?
Correct.Quote
MotoBarsteward
At the same time, there is no reason why I couldn't take his ideas and produce my own OpenScad files that would produce facsimiles of his design.
Yes.Quote
MotoBarsteward
Could I then attach my own copyright to the OpenScad file and publish it using a GPL V3 License?
No. Registering the copyright does not magically increase its power. It just creates a paper trail that shows a copyright exists:Quote
MotoBarsteward
Now, if Greg or Wade had registered their design then this would be different.
Reverse-engineering an OpenSCAD file does not infringe on any copyright, so whether or not the copyright is registered is not relevant.Quote
Wikipedia on copyright registration
The purpose of copyright registration is to place on record a verifiable account of the date and content of the work in question, so that in the event of a legal claim, or case of infringement or plagiarism, the copyright owner can produce a copy of the work from an official government source.
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 01:50PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
[...
It cannot be applied because you are trying to license what you do not have.Quote
AndrewBCN
The GPL is a specific kind of license and I do not see in what way it cannot be applied to a 3D design in the process I described above
...
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 01:59PM |
Admin Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 730 |
Re: Use of open source designs June 17, 2015 02:08PM |
Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 977 |
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MattMoses
It cannot be applied to a 3D design of a useful object like an extruder because you are trying to license what you do not have.Quote
AndrewBCN
The GPL is a specific kind of license and I do not see in what way it cannot be applied to a 3D design in the process I described above