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Are you going upgrade to Windows 10

Posted by scubi 
Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 03:25AM
Hi
Are you guys going to upgrade to windows 10. Wonder if it will cause problems with some of our 3D printing software we use.
Whats your thoughts
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 04:00AM
I will be upgrading to Windows 10. The software that matters to me is:

- OpenScad for generating STL files
- Slic3r for slicing STL files
- Chrome or FireFox for controlling the printers and uploading files, unless the new browser in Windows 10 supports enough HTML5 to do the job

and occasionally:

- Bossac (from Arduino IDE) for updating firmware
- Pronterface (with the USB driver from Arduino IDE) for debugging firmware changes

The last two of these I can run on a laptop running an older version of Windows if necessary. I'll let you now what I find.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 06:05AM
Windows 10 would be a downgrade for those of us who don't use Microsoft products..... grinning smiley
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 06:36AM
windows 10 compulsory updates == reboots mid print!

If your fine with that, sure upgrade to windows 10.

(or you can get pro version and disable it)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 06:37AM by Dust.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 10:30AM
Considering my job... probably so...
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 12:22PM
Quote
Dust
windows 10 compulsory updates == reboots mid print!

If your fine with that, sure upgrade to windows 10.

(or you can get pro version and disable it)

Printing directly from an attached PC is a bad idea, especially when doing long prints. I always print from SD card.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 12:22PM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 01:12PM
Quote
vreihen
Windows 10 would be a downgrade for those of us who don't use Microsoft products..... grinning smiley

And for some that do!
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 01:25PM
I'll agree if Windows is in play. On Linux, I regularly run 12 to 16 hour runs from my laptop, and never an issue. Once again, advanced platforms don't have problems, just WhinDuhs, or so it appears . . . Oh, and I leave it alone when running too . . . The time and effort to upload to SD just doesn't seem to be worth it for me . . . and dc42, don't feed me the crap about USB and no flow control . . . it's clearly using *software* flow control . . . . . . waiting for the OK to proceed *IS* flow control! No *hardware* flow control, which would be more elegant, but many, many, things have run software flow over the years successfully, and this is no exception . . .and it isn't exactly a high speed application . . .

- Tim

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 01:30PM by tadawson.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 01:49PM
I will be trying windows 10, seeing 3 laptops, 3 wifi card, all got the same problem in windows, dropping connections, not seeing the router, having to disable and enable wifi to work again, never had that problem in fedora, if 10 is the same I just be ditching windows altogether, everything works as they should in linux, just cant play games, which I don't do much these days
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 02:06PM
Not sure my old PC can count up to 10 smiling smiley
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 02:34PM
I've hated being forced to use Windows for so long that I never consider getting a newer version an upgrade. I've been looking for a way out of Windows for almost 20 years.

I run linux as much as possible, but just a few critical programs I use run on windows only and won't work under linux, so I am stuck, just as MS wants me to be. One of the big hold-ups is CAD. There just aren't any CAD programs with a decent UI that run in Linux. Before anyone suggests running in a virtual machine, I have tried and found that the graphics drivers in VMs don't work well enough for 3D CAD.

Recently I got an On-shape beta test account set up. If I decide to switch over to On-shape - I'm not big on the whole "cloud" thing- I should be able to run in Linux and on my tablet, an hopefully ditch Windows forever. I use a 3D mouse with CAD and would hate to give it up, but I have never been able to get the linux drivers working. Right now On-shape doesn't support 3D mice, but they've had a LOT of requests on their forums and the moderators indicate they will be adding support soon, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 02:42PM
Run the Windows stuff you need in a qemu VM . . . it boots faster than Windows native, and passes all USB devices if desired. The only possible issue to cad, as you noted, might be graphics card acceleration access (and there are some better add-on drivers for this than stock in qemu . . ), but to date, I have found nothing I can't get to work. Or, dual boot and run Win* only when needed, otherwise run Linux, and have Linux mount the Win* drive so you still have access to everything. I've done this forever, and when I was last with IBM 2 years ago, it was the corporate standard for 'priviledged' users, to the level that you were not allowed to take a Win* image between customers - delete and recreate clean was the only way Win* could be regarded as secure . . . Linux, no issue.

- Tim

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 02:44PM by tadawson.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 02:57PM
I've used dual boot in the past. I had Windows corrupt the file system on its HDD and the only way to fix it was to reinstall Windows, but since Windows insists on being the first thing on the HDD, I also had to reinstall Linux. The idea of having to reinstall everything because the OS I use for one or two apps fails annoys the hell out of me. I prefer to be Windows free.

I'll look into Qemu...


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 03:21PM
You botched something . . . you can reinstall either without affecting the other. Put Windows on part 1, Linux on 2, swap on 3, and whatever on 4 if you like. If/when Windows toofs, reinstall Win*, but do *NOT* allow it to repartition. Then boot into Linux with your CD and put the Linux bootloader back on, so you have access to both. If your Win* partition is smallish (as mine are), you can take an image backup with dd, and if/when it blows, just write the image back to the Win* partition from Linux, and never have to reinstall from the Win* media at all . . .

- Tim
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 03:34PM
Quote
tadawson
You botched something . . . you can reinstall either without affecting the other. Put Windows on part 1, Linux on 2, swap on 3, and whatever on 4 if you like. If/when Windows toofs, reinstall Win*, but do *NOT* allow it to repartition. Then boot into Linux with your CD and put the Linux bootloader back on, so you have access to both. If your Win* partition is smallish (as mine are), you can take an image backup with dd, and if/when it blows, just write the image back to the Win* partition from Linux, and never have to reinstall from the Win* media at all . . .

- Tim

Spoken like the IT professional it takes to keeps windows running! I'll keep all that in mind in case I attempt a dual boot configuration again.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 03:55PM
No, I actually barely tolerate WhinDuhs, and only use it as a last resort. I am an IT professional, though, and run Linux as a primary platform, and ironically find that performing some maintenance actions for Win* is easier using Linux . . .

But seriously, about the only thing a Win* install does to Linux is overwrite the MBR, which holds the bootloader. That is at the header of tne disk and outside of all partitions . . the rest stays intact.

- Tim
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 06:05PM
@DC42
I've been printing direct from a pc for 5+ years, people who say its bad don't have a clue WTF they are talking about.

Granted its a dedicated pc, running linux, to get over the many issues of other operating systems.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 06:49PM
Quote
Dust
@DC42
I've been printing direct from a pc for 5+ years, people who say its bad don't have a clue WTF they are talking about.

Granted its a dedicated pc, running linux, to get over the many issues of other operating systems.


DC42 and I don't always agree on things, but I'm 100% with him (her?) on this: SD cards FTW!

My very first attempt at a multihour print failed 1 hour in when the laptop that was connected to the machine went to sleep. Of course, I had forgotten to change the settings so it wouldn't do that, but it was enough to get me thinking about all the ways a computer can fail and I decided it was not worth the risk. Just to demonstrate that some of us do have a clue WTF we're talking about, here is a short list of the sorts of things that can cause a computer to fail:

1) dead battery
2) dead power supply
3) other hardware failure
4) bad USB cable/socket
5) cat walks across keyboard
6) cat chews through wires
7) someone decides to install software while the print is running
8) windows decides to update and reboot while a print is running
9) ... and many more

With all those ways to fail, what can the computer offer that running from an SD card can't?
1) on the fly changing of certain print parameters
2) ?

If you're running from a computer and find yourself constantly tweaking printing parameters on the fly, either you haven't calibrated the machine properly or you're not using the slicer very well.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 09:36PM
Quote
the_digital_dentist
I've hated being forced to use Windows for so long that I never consider getting a newer version an upgrade. I've been looking for a way out of Windows for almost 20 years.

I work in IT, and like to point out that Windows 8 sold more Macintosh computers than any Apple ads ever could! I'm not overly thrilled with the OS-X 1980's GUI multitasking and the spinning beach ball of death, but it is refreshing to have Unix under the hood and many more GUI-based popular apps than Linux has. I have to work with all three for a pay check, but my own money bought a Macbook for my home use.....
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 10:54PM
@the_digital_dentist

1) dead battery,
No most laptops will work fine with a dead battery, just not without power

2) dead power supply
Can also happen to reprap

3) other hardware failure
Can also happen to reprap

4) bad USB cable/socket
Can also happen to reprap (I also include dead SD card socket in here)

5) cat walks across keyboard
Get a dog.

6) cat chews through wires
Get a second Dog

7) someone decides to install software while the print is running
Thats in idiot Operator error.

8) windows decides to update and reboot while a print is running
Thats also an idiot operator error for running windows.

9) ... and many more
all of wich are equaly invalid.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 10:55PM by Dust.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 28, 2015 11:37PM
My primary concern is whether they made VBA IE integration backwards compatible. I have a lot of legacy code that uses that functionality, including for the printers, some of which would be very inconvenient to work around.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 12:08AM
It's this simple: if there's no computer, a computer failure can't cause a print to fail.

Of course the printer has its own reliability, and of course it can fail all by itself. Adding a computer to the mix doesn't increase reliability, it reduces it because a computer can fail in many ways and all it takes is one to ruin a print.

If the printer reliability is 90% and the computer reliability is 90% when you put them together, you don't have a 90% reliable system, you have an 81% reliable system. That's how these things work.

You can tell me that you've printed with a computer controlling your printer for years and never had a failure but you are confusing an anecdote for evidence. Sure, you can take all sorts of steps to try to increase the reliability of the computer- run linux, keep animals out of the room, set it so it doesn't ever sleep, etc. Even with all your precautions, the reliability doesn't go to 100%, so using a computer always lowers the overall reliability of the system.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 12:29AM
I would argue that the computer will be more reliable in avoiding data errors than trying to read an SD card over a very crappy chunk of unshielded ribbon cable. And, I can't speak for the WinTurd(TM) users, but my systems are available at least 99.995% (3 minutes out per year) other than for planned updates. Heck across 4 systems, I have not had a crash in over 5 years . . . remember, no WhinDuhs!

So, considering all the things that can (and do) go wrong on a printer, I can make the valid argument that any instability introduced into the process by the computer is statistically irrelevant, and not worth considering. Heck, I have had more electronics fail/error annually due to SD card failures than I have has computer issues!

- Tim
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 04:34AM
Quote
tadawson
I would argue that the computer will be more reliable in avoiding data errors than trying to read an SD card over a very crappy chunk of unshielded ribbon cable.

Modern electronics boards (Duet, Smoothie and clones) have the SD socket integrated on the board.

I can accept that a semi-dedicated PC used for nothing else while a print is running can be reliable enough and fast enough to feed data to the printer. You would want to disable auto downloading of updates, which by the sound of it may be a problem with Windows 10. But I don't want to dedicate an entire PC to my printer. The PC I use for slicing and designing models is the same one I am using to write this reply.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2015 04:34AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 04:55AM
Although I can't contribute much to this thread due to a faulty printer, I had a discussion earlier with someone (I'm pretty sure he knows his shit), he told me he would never print from SD. I planned to print from SD, but now installing linux for it...

I want to hear more USB vs. SD card print pro/cons.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 07:59AM
Forgetting all else in the computer vs SD card debate, how hard is it to pull a USB cable out of a computer? That's how easy it is for your computer driven printer to fail.

Once you have your printer working, and then discover all the ways a print can fail (not sticking to the bed, filament tangling on the spool, etc.) by experiencing a few of them, you begin to think about how to make the process more reliable. You remove as many unknowns as possible and develop techniques for dealing with those that can't be removed completely. Computer failure in any form (hardware or software) can be removed by simply not using a computer. Don't worry, even after you remove the computer, there are still plenty of ways for your prints to fail. You'll be studying and thinking and developing your own set of strategies for preventing them for many months.

There in't much more to say about it other than to have you search these forums for "pronterface", "repetier" and other host software names to see the problems people could avoid by not using a computer.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 08:25AM
Quote
SQLException
Although I can't contribute much to this thread due to a faulty printer, I had a discussion earlier with someone (I'm pretty sure he knows his shit), he told me he would never print from SD.

Either he doesn't know know his s**t, or his SD hardware is unreliable. SD cards wouldn't be used in cameras, video recorders and mobile phones if they were not reliable. OTOH the quality control of some of the LCD/SD card socket addons made for RAMPS leaves a lot to be desired.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 01:14PM
Yeah, hide the SD where you can't get to it easily . . . .that makes lots of sense . . .

I suppose if you only have one computer and stream porn and play games, it could be a problem, but that's user error, not anything else. And let's get off the Windows crap, OK? Just because they do everything as stupidly as possible does not mean those problems exist on more advanced platforms . . . and it's easy to resolve those problems . . .remember, 'format cures Windows' . . . simply load one of the plethora of offerings that are not broken by design, and that can do anythin that Win* can, only faster/better/cheaper/more stable . . . Win* is a choice (and not a very good one, typically based on a 'lemming' mindset) not a necessity . . .

Yes, I have multiple systems . . . a server that handles mail and basically is my domain. A desktop that is my promary system, a dedicated system in my workshop for reading docs, etc., and two laptops . . . one for the miniscule amount of Win stuff I need (car diag tools, RC hobby setup/management stuff) that is up maybe 10 minutes a year, and another 8 core laptop for work and 'whatever' that currently runs my 3D when needed, since it is quite fast. When printing, it's in the shop, and otherwise not. While I try to avoid doing too much else, with 8 cores and Pronterface single threaded, I have yet to create a burp with basic web use, compiling in Arduino, or slicing in parallel with a print job . . . Oh, and a tablet I use for most of this kind of stuff . . .and the wife has her own laptop and tablet as well.

The USB speed argument looks good on paper, but is pure BS when actually analyzed. 250000 baud running typical 8+2 is 25000 characters per second. Most gcode is 10 to 15 characters, so that is 1750 to 2500 commands per second, and considering most controllers are limited to less than 500 segments per second (and that derived from a much lower gcode rate) there is still a lot of headroom, since the limitation on a 3d is mostly mechanical. For that matter, if speed were an issue, 115200 would print slower than 250000 by 2x, but that isn't an observable case either. Look at a typical job and divide gcode lines by time, and this will become painfully obvious as a non-issue . . .Software flow control and optional checksumming exists (details in another message) so that straw argument falls over as well.

Why is it that magically, the only things that you bash are things that help you sell your board, but not which are necessarily supported by fact and technology? Sure, some things may be *theoretically* better, but if anyone will see that in the real world is questionable at best . . . . and all the severe downsides to all in o e solutions, you flippantly dismiss, despite the factual basis for thkse concerns? The stink I get is a sales/marketing based agenda, not truthful or factual information exchange . . .

SD also has serious read/write cycle lifetime issues, and is more failure prone than any other storage device I have used, and no bad cell remapping or correction, unlike an actual drive. If someone were to put an mSata controller on a printer controller (or just sata) so we could use miniature actual SSD drives, or normal drives, *then* I might get interested, but for now, SD is the floppy of the time - cheap, and not that reliable.

- Tim

Quote
dc42
Quote
tadawson
I would argue that the computer will be more reliable in avoiding data errors than trying to read an SD card over a very crappy chunk of unshielded ribbon cable.

Modern electronics boards (Duet, Smoothie and clones) have the SD socket integrated on the board.

I can accept that a semi-dedicated PC used for nothing else while a print is running can be reliable enough and fast enough to feed data to the printer. You would want to disable auto downloading of updates, which by the sound of it may be a problem with Windows 10. But I don't want to dedicate an entire PC to my printer. The PC I use for slicing and designing models is the same one I am using to write this reply.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 01:23PM
Impossible unless you are stupid enough to screw with it while a job is running, and not that different than pulling out an SD card. That is not a technology limitation, that is user error, and dumbing things down because people won't (or can't) think is not a solution - it just creates and coddles more idiots . . .

I've said it prior, and I will reiterate: the chance of a failed print due to the use of an appropriate advanced platform to drive a printer is so small as to be 'in the noise' and irrelevant compared to the chance of a print failing due to the printer itself. And the advantages of having the next job prepped and good to go *immediately* without waiting for an upload, or an upload/print/oops! slice error/off to the computer to reslice/reupload (sneakernet of the SD, or connect to the printer/put the computer back/print/oops! needed to fix support/repeat. I don't know about, I'm not willing to waste that much time to fix what is primarily a theoretical problem. And you really can't fully decouple the printer and computer fully, since, as I just noted, printers don't slice . . . or edit designs . . . etc. There will always be an associated computer of some source.

- Tim

Quote
the_digital_dentist
Forgetting all else in the computer vs SD card debate, how hard is it to pull a USB cable out of a computer? That's how easy it is for your computer driven printer to fail.

Once you have your printer working, and then discover all the ways a print can fail (not sticking to the bed, filament tangling on the spool, etc.) by experiencing a few of them, you begin to think about how to make the process more reliable. You remove as many unknowns as possible and develop techniques for dealing with those that can't be removed completely. Computer failure in any form (hardware or software) can be removed by simply not using a computer. Don't worry, even after you remove the computer, there are still plenty of ways for your prints to fail. You'll be studying and thinking and developing your own set of strategies for preventing them for many months.

There in't much more to say about it other than to have you search these forums for "pronterface", "repetier" and other host software names to see the problems people could avoid by not using a computer.
Re: Are you going upgrade to Windows 10
July 29, 2015 02:11PM
I wish you continued luck in your computer controlled printing operations.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
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