New print surface material?

ElmoC - Some Isopropyl Alcohols can leave a slight film or haze on the surface being cleaned - if you are using isopropyl with no problem then all is fine. I will be ammending the instructions to reflect this. Acetone and Windex type window cleaners are fine. This being said, none of the above actually cause any damage to PB which is impervious to them.

Treito - if you say you have 0.2mm height difference on the print bed, this is in fact potentially 100% error if your are using a 0.2 bottom layer height, or 67% errior if 0.3 bottom layer. This is bad. Bed levelling needs to be "precise" not approximate. I would however suggest a 0.3mm bottom layer height may be a little more forgiving but even so, bed level must be absolute, not nearly.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2015 01:13PM by Mutley3D.

Mutley, like I said 0.2mm error at the extremes. But that is why I am going to run other tests now. I did not level the bed of my Ormerod 2 on purpose to test the other methods. The ABL left at least this little error so this menas I have an average error of 0.1mm only. Funnily it is only the x-axis. At x=50 it is 0.1mm too high and at x=195 it is 0.1mm too low. I think this is caused at least by the offset of the sensor. I have at least three favorites and two of them would eliminate the offset factor but at one of them I would still keep an offset but I also know that this would work accurate - but it is also the most expensive one. The cheapest one could be the most accurate but also provides the least comfort so I hope to get the best compromise with the second solution.
But that does not matter here as I tested only small parts with ABS and everything is fine. I only tested a small object with a buttom surface of about 17mm x 40mm (x * y). PLA stucks like hell, ABS is pending, but this was probably caused be the settings of the printer and not caused by ABL To fix the ABL problems I needed PrintBite.
But let us cut this for the moment as we cannot solve this by now. On Tuesday my bed will be hopefully fully even (by ABL or manually) as I also need to urgently print some ABS parts for the printer.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Mutley, like I said 0.2mm error at the extremes. But that is why I am going to run other tests now. I did not level the bed of my Ormerod 2 on purpose to test the other methods. The ABL left at least this little error so this menas I have an average error of 0.1mm only. Funnily it is only the x-axis. At x=50 it is 0.1mm too high and at x=195 it is 0.1mm too low. I think this is caused at least by the offset of the sensor. I have at least three favorites and two of them would eliminate the offset factor but at one of them I would still keep an offset but I also know that this would work accurate - but it is also the most expensive one. The cheapest one could be the most accurate but also provides the least comfort so I hope to get the best compromise with the second solution.
But that does not matter here as I tested only small parts with ABL and everything is fine. I only tested a small object with a buttom surface of about 17mm x 40mm (x * y). PLA stucks like hell, ABS is pending, but this was probably caused be the settings of the printer and not caused by ABL To fix the ABL problems I needed PrintBite.
But let us cut this for the moment as we cannot solve this by now. On Tuesday my bed will be hopefully fully even (by ABL or manually) as I also need to urgently print some ABS parts for the printer.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2015 02:37PM by Treito.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

So ABS is also astonishing. Nearly no warping with a part I always had warping. (Okay I tested only two parts so far). The problem was my level sensor as the value for z-homing changed due to the material (temperature?). That is the problem if you use an analogue sensor. The bad thing about this was that the skirt looked good but did not stick. If I lowered the nozzle the skirt got thinner and really did not stick. So I accidentally did not consider to move the nozzle further down, but as I did I got a beautifully skirt and a part nearly so perfect I have never got before using ABS even with BuildTak I could not get that result. Unfortunaetly I cannot tell how good the sticking is (but regarding the less warping it has to be good), but after printing and cooling down it was completely free. This material is really crazy.
I have to test also HIPS and PETG some day and I also have one part that would really test PrintBite: Even PLA tends to warps. This part is really tricky to print and consists of two parts and both suffers from this problem. This is a big part of 10 hours printing in total and at least I would like to print this in PETG as I need a tough and stable print.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

It is me again.
I taped now the second PrintBite to glass. This one was equipped with a slightly other tape (red protection strips). Applying did not make any big differences. But this time I made a msll mistake (so I cannot compare this to the other tape): I did not align the PrintBite perfectly. Now my print area is shrunked by 1mm in x direction.
The point is t hat I had no chance to lift the PrintBite from the glass to correct my fault. The second problem is that at two strips there are two sides beneath and there is an area where I cannot get rid of the air. The strange thing is that this area is at the outside of the tapes so there should not be any problems.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Been playing around with the PrintBite on my Printrbot Simple Metal. So far, I am really impressed with it. I still have a few things to work out, but those are more printer problems. The one issue I have is with the thickness of it. The Printrbot uses an inductive sensor and because of the thickness of the material, the sensor has to be lowered to compensate for it which leaves less of a gap between the sensor and the nozzle. I did have a bit of a problem at one point where a blob was getting hit by the sensor and pulling the print up. I readjusted the sensor and that has corrected the problem.

Would it be possible to get PrintBite in a thinner version?

ABS is not a real strong stick so it still tends to warp, but I am still working on it. HIPS instead is really a good stick like PLA and that means nearly no warping (with Kapton tape it warped like ABS).

Besides I was able to change my ABL control now. First test looks good, but it is past midnight so I cannot do a test print. When my nozzle touches the bed it lifts up a bit and triggers a microswitch. It seems to work better than I thought. Some pictures can be seen here:
[forums.reprap.org]

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

My experience so far has been good but the taping of this material generates unevenness, certainly with the tape I am using (3m carpet tape). Might there be any plans to supply it professionally bonded to an aluminium backing, in such a way that it is rolled to ensure it is flat. This could then easily be screwed or clipped to the printer?

Quote
Mutley3D

Quote
elwood127
You know, you could add tape to order. That way we don't have 30 feet sitting around for years to come.

PrintBite is cheap and no frills but very effective. That is what people wish for, cheap, no frills, and effective. You could use 3M 468P tape, buy a sheet at greater expense and have none spare.

I read that the 3m sheet goods are sometimes a pain to peel apart. It also seems a bit thick. I use a similar tape in my flooring business and it seems that being so thick would produce an uneven finish for the printbite. Are there any thin sheets out there that aren't quite so gooey? There are quite a few posts here so sorry if this has been discussed already.

Looks awesome mut! Do you have it for 300mm^2?

I found this very thin double sided tape on amazon. handles up to 400 degrees F or 200 c which should be plenty for heated beds. only .06mm thick so it should reduce the thickness variations people are having with carpet tape....

[www.amazon.com]

Been doing some PLA printing with this material and having some bad lifting in spots. 90% of the print sticks fine, but there are several areas where the print doesn't stick and curls up. I have seen similar problems with PETG, but not as bad. Any suggestions? I really want to keep using it, but might have to switch back to BuildTak so I can get some print jobs finished.

Quote
ElmoC
Been doing some PLA printing with this material and having some bad lifting in spots. 90% of the print sticks fine, but there are several areas where the print doesn't stick and curls up. I have seen similar problems with PETG, but not as bad. Any suggestions? I really want to keep using it, but might have to switch back to BuildTak so I can get some print jobs finished.

What temps and bottom layer speeds are you using? Try increasing bed and or nozzle temp by 5-10 degrees. Also make sure surface is well cleaned (I find windex works best for me printing ABS 95% of the time)

After posting, I discovered the nozzle temp had gotten set way too low so reprinted with higher. This is eSun White PLA. Was 185, now 200. Bed temp was set to 70 (normally was 60). I reprinted and still got lifting, but not as bad. Had been cleaning with 95% isopropyl Alcohol. Just did a cleaning wih Acetone and getting ready to print again. Will clean with glass cleaner if still having problems. After that, will start raising nozzle temp more.

Any suggestion for the best type of tape available in the UK for attaching this surface to my aluminium bed? I am very happy with the printbite but the cheapo tape I used is not standing up to abs heat bed temperatures.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2015 03:55PM by DjDemonD.

Quote
DjDemonD
Any suggestion for the best type of tape available in the UK for attaching this surface to my aluminium bed? I am very happy with the printbite but the cheapo tape I used is not standing up to abs heat bed temperatures.

3M 8153LE may be a good choice. Look for it on Amazon or eBay.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
ElmoC
After posting, I discovered the nozzle temp had gotten set way too low so reprinted with higher. This is eSun White PLA. Was 185, now 200. Bed temp was set to 70 (normally was 60). I reprinted and still got lifting, but not as bad. Had been cleaning with 95% isopropyl Alcohol. Just did a cleaning wih Acetone and getting ready to print again. Will clean with glass cleaner if still having problems. After that, will start raising nozzle temp more.

Cleaned with alcohol, acetone, and window cleaner. Bed temp at 70 and 80. Nozzle temp up to 215. Still got some real bad lifting. But only in spots. It seems the surface finish isn't consistent with the one I have. If I move the part over so it is in a different spot, the lifting isn't as bad. Going to have to take it off for now though. I have to get some parts printed and can't have this lifting on it.

This can occur if you put your glass directly onto the heated bed without heat spreader. I use an aluminium MK3 heated bed (and my other printer is equipped with a MK2a heated bed and aluminium heat spreader) and I have no hot spots. This issue is not related to PrintBite. Using buildTak you may have luck regarding printing as the sticking may be better, but in that case you are in an area where you can easily destroy BuildTak or reduce its life drastically.

However regarding ABS I am not able to get a very good stick. It seems like my fan is the right choice for PLA printing but it may be too strong for ABS and ABS does not stick very well. HIPS is sticking much better (it uses the same temperatures).

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
However regarding ABS I am not able to get a very good stick. It seems like my fan is the right choice for PLA printing but it may be too strong for ABS and ABS does not stick very well.

As far as I know, and from all the ABS printing I have done, you should not have a fan blowing on the print for ABS.

I do not have a photo of my i3 x-carriage/print head but my solution is to have one very small (2cm) print fan with a duct which is firmware controlled which just comes on when printing ABS for small, quick layers to prevent melting/slumping, and one larger fan (4cm) connected in parallel but with a switch so that I turn it on for PLA but off for ABS.

Quote
DaveOB
As far as I know, and from all the ABS printing I have done, you should not have a fan blowing on the print for ABS.

The fan is not blowing directly onto the ABS print. You need a fan for cooling the hot end. Even though the fan is not very strong as it is a calm 40x40x10mm fan it seems that the backlash is too strong. But for PLA it seems to be perfect as I can print bridges very well without additional fan (but this fan was planned already).
[www.akasa.com.tw]
Besides of that other surface material seems to have a stronger sticking. Additionally HIPS for example is much better sticking onto PrintBite using the same temperatures. Using my current setup I cannot heat the Printbite surface over 105°C. (The thermistor reports 115°C underneath the glass then) Maybe this is the problem?

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Get rid of the glass and stick the printbite to aluminium. I don't see the point of glass unless you are actually printing on to it. It is not a good conductor.

When you say the backlash is too strong do you mean the air flow of the fan, backlash means slack in mechanical parts such as loose belts or sloppy gears etc...

Oh sorry,

first of all I am not good to stick the PrintBite directly onto the aluminium bed (MK3) as I want to remove the PrintBite incl. the printed part to let it cool down. Also I would like to have the possibility to change the bed surface. For the moment it seems that BuildTak would be the best choice for ABS and PrintBite for anything else.

I ment that the fan generates some kind of unwanted curl between the nozzle and the bed which cools down. I got it, only one letter was wrong: backwash that is what I ment. Sorry

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2015 09:05PM by Treito.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

After about 6 weeks of using my Printbite I figured it was time to report back. I have a Prusa i3 with e3D Chimera and a Mk3 aluminium heatpad, to which I stuck the Printbite using cheap double-sided adhesive tape I bought off eBay (the stuff normally used in arts & crafts).

Previously I used a glass buildplate, held down with clips and needed hairspray to print ABS - and even then I frequently had edges lift - so printed PLA mostly. With Printbite, that has reversed - ABS is now so easy it is my preferred print material. After initially spending time getting the bed level, I don't have to level the bed for each print - I simply wipe the Printbite with a paper towel and some window cleaner, heat it and then print. No lifting at all with ABS. A heatbed set to 110°C seems perfect.

PLA, strangely, is now like ABS was with glass. I have to be very careful and still often get lifting. I have tried adjusting the nozzle gap, changed temperatures, adjusted print speed and everything else I can think of and the PLA still doesn't stick reliably.

As a result, I have decided to print mostly in ABS in future, but have a big stock of PLA to work through first! The problem is that I'm not using it because the ABS works so well!

Attached photo is it printing ABS:

Am I happy with the Printbite? Yes, absolutely!

Richard

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 04:31AM by RGN01.

Your surface looks kind of strange. Do you have some big air bubbles enclosed? This could be the cause why PLA is not printing well. For me it is the opposite as PLA sticks like hell when hot and ABS will not stick. Probably as I still use the glass the surface will not get hot enough. Soon at the end of the year I will have a big maintenance of my printer. I will exchange my MK3 with another one (as my solderings are not perfect so I prepare a replacement MK3 to fix later the actual one). I will also add a cork plate of 190 x 190 x 3 mm as additional isolation. I hope this would be enough to get more heat for ABS printing.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

The discolouration is the tape deteriorating. It is still flat and holding the Printbite very well, though, with no bubbles so I don't think it is that.

I use a sheet of 3mm cork under the heatpad and below the cork is a layer of 3mm depron - this is a very good insulator and is light and easily able to take the heat that leaks through the cork. A cheap source for this material is frozen pizza bases - they are very often made from depron or equivalent.

Richard

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 05:39AM by RGN01.

The problem is that air conducts heat very bad. If you have air bubbles enclosed this can result that your heat is not spreaded even at the surface so you have hot spots and cold spots at the surface. Small air bubbles should not be a big deal but your air bubbles are far too big.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Sorry, Treito, I edited my post which makes yours look like you didn't read mine!

As I said, they are not air bubbles - the tape is discolouring, following the heat lines in the heatbed. Pressing down on them does not change their shape or size and there is no vertical movement at all where these marks are.

I've replaced the tape once already (when I wanted to move the Printbite in relation to the heatbed) and it was fully stuck down despite that discolouration.

Richard

To check whether air bubbles and temperature variation is having an effect, I've just used an infra-red thermometer to check the temperature of the build plate and the maximum variation from the 110°C set temperature is only 0.25°C (0.5°C range) over the full build surface.

Richard

Any experience with printing POM on this material? I am having a horrible time trying to print POM, as it doesn't seem to stick to ANYTHING reasonably well. But 18 pounds plus shipping is a bit steep if the material isn't known to work well with it.

(edit) I found it noted on the site, the material won't work with acetal/POM. Bummer.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 09:06PM by stamasd.