New print surface material?
Posted by Mutley3D
|
Re: New print surface material? May 01, 2016 09:32PM |
I've been trying out PrintBite for a few weeks on one of my printers, and thought I'd share my experiences for those who are considering it.
For those in Australia, allow at least 3 weeks for it to arrive. Even though the seller claimed "If shipped via standard Airmail it will take 5-7 days", this certainly didn't apply to me.
The surface is really shiny, with a slight pattern on it. The material itself appears to be a type of fibreglass sheet, so it's easy to cut to shape with a sharp jigsaw. Remember to have a vacuum cleaner set up to suck up all the airborne fibres. You can also easily drill the material, it is quite easy to work with. The double sided adhesive that is applied to the surface seems very sticky, no issues with that at all.
To start with, I just clipped the surface to my build plate, heated up the printbed, and tried some prints with the same settings that worked really well for PEI...
Only to have it delaminate after a cm or so of height.
After talking with the supplier, he advised me to stick the surface directly to the heatbed, and bump up my bed temperature to 120 degrees.
So I did. I tried a variety of temperatures on both heatbed and nozzle, as well as trying a range of different filaments. Eventually I got to the point where small brackets were working OK:
When the print bed cooled to below 50 degrees, the parts would completely separate from the bed as if they had just been placed there. You don't need to scrape them off at all, you can just pick them straight off the bed. If you haven't used a brim, then the part is ready for use straight away. I really like this feature of Printbite.
However, no matter what I tried, I was having trouble getting the first few mm of travel to stick properly to the bed after a retraction. This isn't much of a problem with most models -- if you miss the first little part of a line then the next layer will fix it up.
As luck would have it though, the model that I print the most of, has many retractions on the bottom layer.
Here are some of the failures:
And here is the exact same model, printed with the same roll of filament, printed on PEI.
If the first layer does go down OK, then you're mostly out of the woods. However due to the adhesion not being as good as PEI, I had quite a few failures like this where the print head hit a small lump in the surface and knocked the part off the print bed. This was printed in PLA, with the recommended settings:
For most people, the performance of Printbite would be acceptable. They would just learn to work around any issues they face. Certainly, this is a vast improvement over having to put down glue or tape every time you want to print.
For me, however, I know how well a PEI surface performs, and anything with lower performance is just not acceptable to me. I'm going to pull off the PrintBite surface and install a PEI surface on this printer. Until then I just have to either use my smaller printer (with a PEI bed), or watch the print carefully to ensure that the print stays stuck properly while printing.
I hope this review helps people make up their mind.
For those in Australia, allow at least 3 weeks for it to arrive. Even though the seller claimed "If shipped via standard Airmail it will take 5-7 days", this certainly didn't apply to me.
The surface is really shiny, with a slight pattern on it. The material itself appears to be a type of fibreglass sheet, so it's easy to cut to shape with a sharp jigsaw. Remember to have a vacuum cleaner set up to suck up all the airborne fibres. You can also easily drill the material, it is quite easy to work with. The double sided adhesive that is applied to the surface seems very sticky, no issues with that at all.
To start with, I just clipped the surface to my build plate, heated up the printbed, and tried some prints with the same settings that worked really well for PEI...
Only to have it delaminate after a cm or so of height.
After talking with the supplier, he advised me to stick the surface directly to the heatbed, and bump up my bed temperature to 120 degrees.
So I did. I tried a variety of temperatures on both heatbed and nozzle, as well as trying a range of different filaments. Eventually I got to the point where small brackets were working OK:
When the print bed cooled to below 50 degrees, the parts would completely separate from the bed as if they had just been placed there. You don't need to scrape them off at all, you can just pick them straight off the bed. If you haven't used a brim, then the part is ready for use straight away. I really like this feature of Printbite.
However, no matter what I tried, I was having trouble getting the first few mm of travel to stick properly to the bed after a retraction. This isn't much of a problem with most models -- if you miss the first little part of a line then the next layer will fix it up.
As luck would have it though, the model that I print the most of, has many retractions on the bottom layer.
Here are some of the failures:
And here is the exact same model, printed with the same roll of filament, printed on PEI.
If the first layer does go down OK, then you're mostly out of the woods. However due to the adhesion not being as good as PEI, I had quite a few failures like this where the print head hit a small lump in the surface and knocked the part off the print bed. This was printed in PLA, with the recommended settings:
For most people, the performance of Printbite would be acceptable. They would just learn to work around any issues they face. Certainly, this is a vast improvement over having to put down glue or tape every time you want to print.
For me, however, I know how well a PEI surface performs, and anything with lower performance is just not acceptable to me. I'm going to pull off the PrintBite surface and install a PEI surface on this printer. Until then I just have to either use my smaller printer (with a PEI bed), or watch the print carefully to ensure that the print stays stuck properly while printing.
I hope this review helps people make up their mind.
|
Re: New print surface material? May 02, 2016 12:44AM |
Thank you for your feedback. PrintBite is not PEI, different settings required. Advised you a few times in email support. The images you posted above are the ones you emailed me when stating your temps, which you told me were printed with ABS at 230 and PLA at 200. I advised 210 on PLA and 245 on ABS as per instructions. Perhaps this didnt translate.
Shipping delay was due to your local customs or post service. Every effort is made to ship promptly. Your case was 2 days from order as you said you had timeline. You were advised 7-10 days in transit time, and offered DHL shipping option which you would have got in 48 hours! You chose cheaper slower option
- didnt work out for you on this occasion.
You hadnt stuck the plate down. It comes with adhesive backing specifically for adhering. Use without adhering will result in print failure. This is stated in instructions.
I looked at the file you sent me. Screen shot below is in netfab. Errors in the file around where your adhesion issues were. I too noticed odd behaviour when printing your original file. After netfab much more normal print moves. I suspect this is something you drew but your stl export settings not ideal or original geometry problematic.
Worth keeping on eye on in your CAD, but in any event it still stuck well for me using normal PrintBite temps as the images further below show. Netfab your models before printing is a good practice.
PrintBite is not PEI (and certainly not fibreglass, crazy suggestion) specific instructions are supplied for usage. Dissappointing the customs delay caused you issues and upset. I appreciate the feedback. I will tell Aussie customers 4 weeks in future to be on safe side, aswell as offering DHL.
+90% of users get dialled in and good results when they follow guidance, and are very happpy. Some have commented on benefits over PEI aswell. Greater range of material adhesion. Swings and roundabouts i guess, no one will please everyone all of the time.
Images below for reference.
Netfab pre-repair - this is the underside of the model - unstitched triangles shown in orange colour
Netfab post repair - unstichced triangles removed and repaired
Quick test print 0.2 bottom layer worked first time also did 0.1 and 0.3 bottom layer, all same result - also printed without Brim
If you havent pulled it off yet, maybe retry with the advice above and netfabbing the stl, you might get improved results. If you do you will have wider material compatibility with PrintBite than PEI (ie Nylons PC's TCPTE etc)
Good luck!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2016 12:46AM by Mutley3D.
Shipping delay was due to your local customs or post service. Every effort is made to ship promptly. Your case was 2 days from order as you said you had timeline. You were advised 7-10 days in transit time, and offered DHL shipping option which you would have got in 48 hours! You chose cheaper slower option
- didnt work out for you on this occasion. You hadnt stuck the plate down. It comes with adhesive backing specifically for adhering. Use without adhering will result in print failure. This is stated in instructions.
I looked at the file you sent me. Screen shot below is in netfab. Errors in the file around where your adhesion issues were. I too noticed odd behaviour when printing your original file. After netfab much more normal print moves. I suspect this is something you drew but your stl export settings not ideal or original geometry problematic.
Worth keeping on eye on in your CAD, but in any event it still stuck well for me using normal PrintBite temps as the images further below show. Netfab your models before printing is a good practice.
PrintBite is not PEI (and certainly not fibreglass, crazy suggestion) specific instructions are supplied for usage. Dissappointing the customs delay caused you issues and upset. I appreciate the feedback. I will tell Aussie customers 4 weeks in future to be on safe side, aswell as offering DHL.
+90% of users get dialled in and good results when they follow guidance, and are very happpy. Some have commented on benefits over PEI aswell. Greater range of material adhesion. Swings and roundabouts i guess, no one will please everyone all of the time.
Images below for reference.
Netfab pre-repair - this is the underside of the model - unstitched triangles shown in orange colour
Netfab post repair - unstichced triangles removed and repaired
Quick test print 0.2 bottom layer worked first time also did 0.1 and 0.3 bottom layer, all same result - also printed without Brim
If you havent pulled it off yet, maybe retry with the advice above and netfabbing the stl, you might get improved results. If you do you will have wider material compatibility with PrintBite than PEI (ie Nylons PC's TCPTE etc)
Good luck!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2016 12:46AM by Mutley3D.
|
Re: New print surface material? May 02, 2016 01:06AM |
Quote
Mutley3D
The images you posted above are the ones you emailed me when stating your temps, which you told me were printed with ABS at 230 and PLA at 200. I advised 210 on PLA and 245 on ABS as per instructions. Perhaps this didnt translate.
You're right, it perhaps didn't translate to you. I've always printed ABS at around 250, as detailed in my email (and in posts above in this thread). I don't know where you got 230 from. It certainly wasn't from me.
Quote
Mutley3D
You hadnt stuck the plate down. It comes with adhesive backing specifically for adhering. Use without adhering will result in print failure. This is stated in instructions.
As mentioned above, I did a couple of prints without sticking it down to see how it worked. Again as stated above, I then stuck it down with the supplied adhesive. I wish I hadn't, as now I have to take it off somehow.
Quote
Mutley3D
If you havent pulled it off yet, maybe retry with the advice above and netfabbing the stl, you might get improved results. If you do you will have wider material compatibility with PrintBite than PEI (ie Nylons PC's TCPTE etc)
Good luck!
Thanks for the advice, I'll try using Netfab to see what happens. I wasn't aware that there were unstitched triangles in the model, perhaps 123D design doesn't make perfect STL files. I'll try running the model through it and see what happens.
Regardless, with the same toolpath on PEI, the prints stuck down well. Using the same toolpath on Printbite, the prints didn't stick for the very first mm or so of printing. This was visible on many different models, for a wide variety of filaments, and a wide variety of print settings. It wasn't something that I could resolve reliably.
btw the reference print you show above would be classed as a failure, as it has spikes of plastic that go right through the entrance point. This part is similar to lego. If that spike was present it would stop the other parts from having a good interference fit.
Just for the record, (and repeating what I've sent via email), I've tried filaments with the following settings:
ABS:
Nozzle: 240 to 265
Bed: 105 to 125
Retraction: 2.5 to 3mm
Extra length on restart: 0 to 0.5mm
Filament: 3 different manufacturers
Bed prep: Virgin to medium thickness ABS juice
PLA:
Nozzle: 200-220
Bed: 60 - 70
Filament: Only one manufacturer, but three different colours
Can you perhaps explain how this is not following guidance?
Thanks
|
Re: New print surface material? May 02, 2016 02:00AM |
Each CAD package has its own quirks, none are perfect. It boils down to experience with a particular CAD package to know these quirks. Even I occassioanlly (although very rarely now) snap to a wrong point for example, although I quickly spot it before I end up too far into a design that it becomes a problem to rectify.
Your part, when sliced in Cura, did some very odd moves that appeared to try and lay down a couple of minuscule extrusion dots where there should be straight lines. it then went over them after with normal extrusion behaviour. If there is retraction going on during this time, there are all sorts of oddities that could occur.
There are some backstop practices one can perform to workaround/eliminate CAD related issues, again comes with experience. I dont know about 123D but there are also checks you can do in some packages to check if a solid is actually closed as opposed to non manofild, or containing naked edges. Sometimes if you import into Netfab and inspect where errors might be, then zoom in real close in the original CAD you can see where lines or surfaces arent quite where you thought you put them.
temps came from emails iirc. 245 on nozzle, 120 on bed will get you real close to full adhesion if not full adhesion, then you can adjust accordingly. Anything below these temps is not advised unless you have achieved full adhesion, and then want to turn down a bit, again this dependant on temp accuracy. Temps you read from your printing sw interface are only ever going to be relative not absolute, so your 245 might be someone elses 240 or 250. Try on the hot side, have a go with 125 on bed and 250 nozzle. Lose the advance, and use an extrusion width the same as your onzzle diameter. Also make sure you arent skipping steps on retracts << easy thing to miss.
I dont use advance algo's, i find they are a compensation for something else that isnt right in the machine. Perhaps try a different bottom layer thickness too.
In reality it looks like you are almost there, just a little bit more dialling in, perhaps there is something you havent considered changing as yet because it might not be obvious it would improve things. See how you go
Use with BOTH bed and nozzle set to upper temps, dropping one or other will result in less optimal performance. For ABS 105/110 will not be as good as 120 on the bed. For PLA use 210 or even 220 on nozzle and 70/75 on bed. Its a fine line to get the adhesion "switched on" but once your there you wil really notice it. I am sure you will get the results you need once you iron out this last little bit of dialling in.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2016 02:10AM by Mutley3D.
Your part, when sliced in Cura, did some very odd moves that appeared to try and lay down a couple of minuscule extrusion dots where there should be straight lines. it then went over them after with normal extrusion behaviour. If there is retraction going on during this time, there are all sorts of oddities that could occur.
There are some backstop practices one can perform to workaround/eliminate CAD related issues, again comes with experience. I dont know about 123D but there are also checks you can do in some packages to check if a solid is actually closed as opposed to non manofild, or containing naked edges. Sometimes if you import into Netfab and inspect where errors might be, then zoom in real close in the original CAD you can see where lines or surfaces arent quite where you thought you put them.
temps came from emails iirc. 245 on nozzle, 120 on bed will get you real close to full adhesion if not full adhesion, then you can adjust accordingly. Anything below these temps is not advised unless you have achieved full adhesion, and then want to turn down a bit, again this dependant on temp accuracy. Temps you read from your printing sw interface are only ever going to be relative not absolute, so your 245 might be someone elses 240 or 250. Try on the hot side, have a go with 125 on bed and 250 nozzle. Lose the advance, and use an extrusion width the same as your onzzle diameter. Also make sure you arent skipping steps on retracts << easy thing to miss.
I dont use advance algo's, i find they are a compensation for something else that isnt right in the machine. Perhaps try a different bottom layer thickness too.
In reality it looks like you are almost there, just a little bit more dialling in, perhaps there is something you havent considered changing as yet because it might not be obvious it would improve things. See how you go
Use with BOTH bed and nozzle set to upper temps, dropping one or other will result in less optimal performance. For ABS 105/110 will not be as good as 120 on the bed. For PLA use 210 or even 220 on nozzle and 70/75 on bed. Its a fine line to get the adhesion "switched on" but once your there you wil really notice it. I am sure you will get the results you need once you iron out this last little bit of dialling in.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2016 02:10AM by Mutley3D.
|
Re: New print surface material? May 06, 2016 06:58AM |
Have you tried giving it a quick clean with acetone? Mine stopped sticking because I'd put greasy fingerprints all over it, a quick splash of acetone and a wipe with kitchen roll fixed it.
|
Re: New print surface material? May 06, 2016 08:08AM |
Im sure the suggestion is to run ABS at 245 at least for the bottom layer.
Not cleaning it is also a user issue rather than the material
Instructions: Step 1. Throw instructions into bin. Step 2. Scratch head and ponder.
Not cleaning it is also a user issue rather than the material
Instructions: Step 1. Throw instructions into bin. Step 2. Scratch head and ponder.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.