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New print surface material?

Posted by Mutley3D 
Re: New print surface material?
March 27, 2017 09:26AM
OK, I was still getting slight curl on some sharp corners with bed at 65C so am now at 60C. No loss of adhesion and perfectly sharp corners. 210C nozzle, 60C bed for PLA is spot on for me and I'm very happy with the results.

Has anyone got any advice of PETG? I'm currently trying 220C/80C as recommended elsewhere, and am getting OK adhesion, but small details are ripping off on 1st layer. Cooling is off to start with rising to 75% at 2mm of Z. I'm tempted to keep lifting nozzle temp but it may also be that I need to slightly lower the bed, but the 1st layer doesn't look squished.

BTW, I'm still finding adhesion is *greatly* improved with a small with of acetone every day or so.
Re: New print surface material?
March 27, 2017 10:15AM
I don't print with PETG, But I do print with alot of nGen and Carbonfill. I'm fairly certain nGen is PET and the XT range is PETG based. I find that first layer temps 10c higher works just fine, and 20c higher for the hotend. I then lower this to normal temps for the next layers. I use absolutely no cooling. nGen is amazing in this regard... If I need cooling, I use the smallest amount possible.

I hardly ever wash with acetone, but if you have a dusty house then you might need it more often. Same for an un-level bed, as you might need that extra-adhesion all the time to make up for the lack of adhesion caused by an unlevel bed. Printbite still confuses the hell out of me, where 50 microns difference in height makes all the difference to adhesion!
Re: New print surface material?
April 09, 2017 05:51PM
I must say I have had PrintBite on my modified i3 for well over a year now and simply love this product.

Majority of my prints are ABS with the bed at 130C, first layer 260C ( with my thermistor ) and then 235C for the rest of the print,

and PETG bed at 90C, first layer 260C ( again, as per my thermistor ) and then remain at 260C for the print. Print speed averages 60 - 70 mm/s and layer adhesion is great. I found if I lower the temp then the PETG starts to jam at the speeds that I print.

Also agree that the first layer height is critical, but solved that easily for when I change nozzles, or complete hotend from e3dv5 to Volcano. I added an inverted capacitive sensor, mounted next to the frame, and it detects the point of the nozzle when homing the Z axis.
Re: New print surface material?
April 09, 2017 07:53PM
Aye, I sing praises alot for this product! but have to say again that over the last month I've had the printer running almost 24/7. I reckon I've racked up over 500 hours printing on a single machine this month alone, and not a single print has failed. All prints have been over 5 hours, some 20 hours at a time, full plate parts printing literally edge to edge on a 216mm^2 bed.
Re: New print surface material?
May 20, 2017 08:23AM
I've finally got around to fitting up my new cast ally build plate with a more powerful silicone heat mat and Printbite surface, and for PLA at least it's looking very promising.

I set my first 3 layers at 220/210/200 noz temp, the bed at 70/60/50 and the fan at 0/20/40/60.

Nozzle at 90% height and 100% width, standard S3D setting with 4 brims 1 mm off the piece.

All looks good to me, but at 50 deg the brims could be poked loose with tweezers, where at 60 you couldn't move them. A check with the IR gun tells me I'm at 45 deg, so I guess I'm pretty close to "popping off", but the part is still stuck flat so I'll let it run.

I went back and changed my settings (from the first layer) to:

Noz temp. 220/210/200
Bed temp. 70/65/60
Fan. 0/15/30/45/60

And with that I'm pretty sure it'll be OK.

I'm pretty thorough with my build plate though...1/4" cast ally plate carefully deburred and cleaned before the Printbite went on, then leveled with a feeler guage (not some BS automatic level check) while the noz/bed were hot, and wiped with real acetone on kitchen paper before starting the print. I don't understand why everyone wants to use window cleaner, nail polish remover and what not. If you're into 3D printing, you need a liter bottle of acetone handy...end of story.

This one's my PLA machine, but I'll set another up for ABS and other filaments.

I really think following the manufacturers instructions, using ally not glass and leveling the bed would avoid a lot of dramas with this surface.

** My first layer was a little under extruded as well. I dialed it up 10% on the fly. **







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2017 08:25AM by hobbymods.
Re: New print surface material?
May 25, 2017 06:29AM
Its interesting how filament formulation-dependant things are. I'm using a GoInks transparent ABS for my Piezo modules, and it sticks so well that you have to prise the parts off even at room temperature. Also the recommended light abs wash, every now and again, really works wonders with ABS adhesion for a great many prints afterwards.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: New print surface material?
May 25, 2017 08:10AM
I've got some transparent PLA that needs 230C to stick to PrintBite and some other PLA that's fine at 200C. More bed temperature also helps, but once past 65C I start seeing corner curling.

Yes, height is critical and I now have my own level test that's 9 discs with holes in them printed in a 3x3 grid and only one layer thick. This lets me quickly check and tweak level and then I use my adjustable z stop to drop the nozzle down until every bit of detail sticks firm from the start despite the speed and the bottom layer looks good.
Re: New print surface material?
August 23, 2017 04:11AM
Quote
gadgetmind
I've got some transparent PLA that needs 230C to stick to PrintBite and some other PLA that's fine at 200C. More bed temperature also helps, but once past 65C I start seeing corner curling.

Yes, height is critical and I now have my own level test that's 9 discs with holes in them printed in a 3x3 grid and only one layer thick. This lets me quickly check and tweak level and then I use my adjustable z stop to drop the nozzle down until every bit of detail sticks firm from the start despite the speed and the bottom layer looks good.

Interesting, as we had some very hard time to get some transparent PLA to stick. Might try with higher temp for first layer.

We are using Print Bite for over year now and are very happy with it. Have printed PLA, ABS and PETG with it. But during the last week (after doing our first prints in ABS), performance has worsened, we have edges curling up or the whole base lifting with every print... At first I thought that it was the transparent PLA that was difficult to handle, but then we had the same behaviour with another PLA and ABS.

The question is: Print Bite is durable, but does it wear off after time? Would too many wipes with acetone or the high temperatures of printing ABS damage it? Does it acumulate dirt or dust?

Please let me know if you have experienced something similar. Maybe it's simply time to buy a new sheet, and I would gladly do so, as it saves countless hours of work, but right now I am not sure what is going on.
Re: New print surface material?
August 23, 2017 04:27AM
If you want to restore it make up a mild solution of abs juice (use transparent abs if possible as it doesn't colour your first layer) and wipe it over the surface.

This also supercharges the adhesion so I use it when I have a tricky part to printin abs the grip is much higher. But it will be slightly harder to remove the part.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2017 04:29AM by DjDemonD.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: New print surface material?
August 23, 2017 04:35AM
Quote
Anna & Karl
The question is: Print Bite is durable, but does it wear off after time? Would too many wipes with acetone or the high temperatures of printing ABS damage it? Does it acumulate dirt or dust?

Personally used PrintBite for 18 months ( same sheet ) and print ABS on a daily basis ( average 5 hours a day, 5 days a week ). Only ever had a problem once when changed from ABS to PETG and back. I suspect that the PETG left a residue in the minute grooves on the PrintBite.

A good clean with acetone fixed the issue. Otherwise, on first print of the day, I clean by wiping with window cleaner.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2017 04:38AM by DaveOB.
Re: New print surface material?
August 23, 2017 04:37AM
Anna&Karl - Check your temps and that nothing else is going awry with machine, ie bed and nozzle still hitting correct temps, no burnt connectors etc, and consitent temps across bed (no cold spots). Have seen bed heaters fade unevenly. Not saying its any of these, but just check first.

A wipe down with acetone on clean kitchen towel is the most thorough clean, but sounds like you are doing this. Performance should not fade however.

Whilst bed temp is important, nozzle temp is equally crucial. Make sure nozzle is warm enough to get a full melt of the plastic on bottom layer. But you can also go too hot, so matter of finding sweetspot especially with clear, which can remain a bit soft. Be careful if using fans. Could also try a multi line skirt, akin to a brim, but not actually attached to part (set distance to part of 0.5-1mm) this can help insulate and sheild from fans if being used.

Regarding new sheet, we now have new improved version shipping, its a little thinner, little more adhesion, availabe in clear or black, with matt or gloss finish. And we still apply the grid graphic or custom graphic of your own desire to the clear. Black comes plain only.


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
August 23, 2017 06:35AM
Thank you for all your ideas!

I would try to put a layer of ABS juice, but wouldn't that help only for printing with ABS?

We have checked bed temp, and it is practically the same all over the surface. We have been through all kinds of nozzle temps and bed temps. Using a brim as standard and we have the fan off during the first few layers.

Now we are a bit out of our wits... maybe I take the plate off and instead of a wipe, give it a wash with acetone? Our workshop does get quite dusty sometimes, and maybe this calls for a more radical cleaning...
Re: New print surface material?
August 23, 2017 06:58AM
I sometimes see some PLA "ripping free" of my PrintBite on 1st layer detail despite a different PLA printing fine details OK. I'm currently at 210/60 - is this sweetspot likely to be with higher extruder temperatures of lower?
Re: New print surface material?
August 23, 2017 07:49AM
A clear PLA or ABS will behave differently from a red, which in turn will behave differently from a Black. This is due to additives and pigments used. There will be a sweetspot difference between one and another but not overly so. On one machine I print ABS all day long at 115 on the bed all colours with one exception, Orange! If I print this particular orange ABS it will lift or pull up from the bed at 115 wit regularity, just wont stay down. Raise bed to 120c indicated, perfect every time. Note the real surface temp will be around 105-108c. This is with 245 on nozzle.

HTH


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
August 24, 2017 08:48AM
Okay, I first gave it a thorough cleaning with a toothbrush, first Acetone then window cleaner. Still no improvement.

Then I tried some really low bed temperature - and behold it sticks.

I learned that there is a significant difference between curling and warping - this transparent PLA is extremely flexible when hot, almost like chewing gum, and it curls the corners up on a hot bed.

I will have to look at the other materials we were trying to print without success during the last days - maybe settings were fixed in a rush after all and weren't optimal (it happens with two people running the printer, with one taking over when the other loses patience).

Thank you for all the good advice!
Re: New print surface material?
August 24, 2017 09:36AM
haha with a toothbrush smiling smiley

Yes clear is a strange beast. Glad you got the win.


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
September 02, 2017 04:39PM
Any chance for a coupon?
I'd like to buy the 400x400 glossy clear grid, really only need 13-1/2 x 15" so will need to trim it down.
Live in Southern California, so don't know if I need to pay the VAT...

Cheers

EDIT:

All's good. Order# 4329
Went with the glossy black, looks badass.
Left a note about the size, didn't get charged the VAT smiling smiley
Looking forward to receivership.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2017 11:05PM by prot0typ1cal.
Re: New print surface material?
September 07, 2017 03:21AM
Can people share their PETG extruder and bad temps?

I tried 225/70 and had some parts come free with bad curling. I dropped bed to 65C (dropping from 65C to 60C eliminated curling with PLA for me) and it was worse, so I tried 235/75C and it's a little better but far from perfect. Fan is off for 1st 15 layers and then slowly climbs to 50% so not a lot of cooling.


1st layer adhesion is spot on but parts are curling *very* slightly during the print. Maybe I need even less cooling but bridging is visibly bad on 3D benchy with 15%-25% fan in these areas so I do need a fair bit.
Re: New print surface material?
September 07, 2017 03:59AM
I print 3d Prima PETG at 220 deg C nozzle for 1st layer and 80 indicated bed temp. No real issues, for me its all about first layer height, too low and it adheres to the nozzle and pulls away from the bed, too high and it doesn't lay down an accurate layer.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: New print surface material?
September 07, 2017 04:53AM
My first layer is going down nicely, so it's really down to me getting temperature and fan right. I need fan for bridging but turning it on too early causes the print to break free.

I'll try hotter bed as this worked well for ABS (I need 115C) but for PLA dropping bed temp to 60C was critical.
Re: New print surface material?
September 10, 2017 07:08AM
Temps in the instructions are a guide. Accuracy and temp readings may vary from machine to machine for all manner of reasons. There is also insulating effect so 75 indicated may only be 68-70 actual on top surface.

Pretty sure if you nudge bed temp up a touch you will find issues resolved. Make sure bed is clean aswell.

The new PrintBite+ has improved performance and whilst more expensive to produce, prices being maintained at previous levels for little while longer.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2017 07:41AM by Mutley3D.


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
September 10, 2017 07:13AM
@prot0typ1cal - its on the way smiling smiley and you can get live tracking of your shipment from your account page thumbs upsmileys with beer


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
September 10, 2017 10:22AM
Yes, 85C to 90C seems to have PETG sticking nicely.

I clean with Windex and (occasionally) acetone.
Re: New print surface material?
September 13, 2017 10:51AM
What temps are people using for TPU on PrintBite?
Re: New print surface material?
December 15, 2017 03:49PM
I am trying to print TPE ( gembird3 ) on the printbite+ matt black surface and what ever I do it will not stick,
Bed 30c
filament first layer 240c rest 230c ( not that this maters because I don't get past the first layer )
default 200% flow for first layer with sli3er ( Pursa edition )
squeezing with -0.05 didn't make it better

what is the trick, ABS went perfect.


P3steel DXL, with Due/RADDS/Raps128 dual Wade's extruder
Re: New print surface material?
December 15, 2017 05:38PM
Well, I have not tried the latest flavour but I use the classic printbite very successfully. 30 deg C is way too cold to stick anything, it's barely above room temperature. I'd consider a good bit more bed heat, and measure the actual temp on top of the surface not just the temp indicated on the printer.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: New print surface material?
December 15, 2017 05:55PM
i have a i2c infrared sensor on the x carrier, and changed repetier to measure from the top before printing
I use this low temperature for the bed because that is in the manual from printbite.

I will try increasing the temperature

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2017 05:56PM by amigob.


P3steel DXL, with Due/RADDS/Raps128 dual Wade's extruder
Re: New print surface material?
December 16, 2017 01:22AM
FWIW, I print TPU directly only an ambient (16C-20C) bed with no adhesion issues. Level needs to be spot on, keep it very slow (20mm/s 1st layer), and I use 210C extruder for 1st layer.

I haven't tried TPE.
Re: New print surface material?
December 16, 2017 04:16AM
My speed is also 20mm/s for the first layer then I speed up to 30mm/s
First it looks that it will stick and then after a few rounds it pops of.



The measured thickness is 0.25 mm


P3steel DXL, with Due/RADDS/Raps128 dual Wade's extruder
Attachments:
open | download - tpe_problem.png (519.3 KB)
Re: New print surface material?
December 16, 2017 05:54AM
Bed at 80c still no stick ( not even a improvement ), getting the idea that this TPE filament is not compatible with the matt printbite+.

I was wondering if somebody tried to spray 3Dlac on it ?
This spray can easly be removed wit soupwater. but Would be nice to no if it will effect the printbite+ after I removed the 3dlac with the soupwater.


P3steel DXL, with Due/RADDS/Raps128 dual Wade's extruder
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