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New print surface material?

Posted by Mutley3D 
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dave3d
Re: New print surface material?
February 10, 2016 06:17PM
I have now been using Printbite for a couple of months on my Ordbot and I must say it is a big step forward.
I have it stuck down on a Mk3 bed using 3M tape. I only print ABS now and at 110 deg C it adheres to the bed very well.
I made the mistake at first of dropping the bed temp as the print progressed and it popped off. If it is kept at 110 deg C it stays put.
I previously used Kapton tape and ABS juice. Far less hassle now with Printbite. An occasional wipe with acetone and you are good to go.
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DjDemonD
Re: New print surface material?
February 10, 2016 06:27PM
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dc42
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DjDemonD
Any suggestion for the best type of tape available in the UK for attaching this surface to my aluminium bed? I am very happy with the printbite but the cheapo tape I used is not standing up to abs heat bed temperatures.

3M 8153LE may be a good choice. Look for it on Amazon or eBay.

Indeed it is, it has adhered my printbite on my i3 perfectly and its very thin and even. No lifting after a few months of use, so thank you.

Just an aside but I had some left and tried to stick a dash cam to the rear window of my car, however this tape will not stick to glass (but I suppose very little does without etching).
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Zedsquared
Re: New print surface material?
February 10, 2016 07:01PM
I've been using PrintBite on my Kossel Mini for a month now and it is just great! No more potions all over the surface, just a swipe with window cleaner every now and then.

I've only tried ABS (115 C bed temp works for me) and PLA (60C) but even fiddly prints with little contact patches like chainmail stick fine throughout the print and then fall off when the bed cools below about 30C

The only downside is having to wait a bit longer for the bed to cool down before it's possible to remove the print... I'm thinking of adding an after print bed cooling fan now smiling smiley

My setup: Borosilicate glass (Spring form cake tin base ) with 200W silicone heating pad stuck under it, then printbite on top held down with vinyl floor tape.

Cheers,
Robin.
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ElmoC
Re: New print surface material?
February 10, 2016 07:08PM
Has there been any discussion about a thinner version of Printbite? I have a piece but can't use it because of the thickness, it interferes with the inductive bed leveling. I have to drop the sensor down so low it is almost touching the bed.
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Mutley3D
Re: New print surface material?
February 11, 2016 04:51PM
Hey peoples smiling smiley, im so pleased everyone is having such great results. Just to let you know I have sourced unbranded 3M 468MP equivalent in large format rolls see here -> [imgur.com]

PrintBite now supplied with adhesive tape attached, peel and stick. No cost increase either!

ElmoC - I have some 0.5mm thick PB here, although i went to 0.8 as the 0.5 was a little prone to uneveness however if you want some, just ping me a message, happy to send some.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2016 08:08PM by Mutley3D.
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dave3d
Re: New print surface material?
February 11, 2016 06:31PM
Printbite with adhesive backing already on it would be even better.
I bought the expensive recommended 3M tape and it cost me about the same as the Printbite sheet.
I stuck mine down on an aluminium Mk3 bed and had problems with bubbles. It is not easy to apply.
I also drilled the corners to mount the leveling springs.
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Zedsquared
Re: New print surface material?
February 26, 2016 02:59PM
Just reporting on on my printbite experience with PETG, again no real problems. I run the bed at 70C and it grips fine, the only difference it it doesn't release quite as completely as ABS and PLA seem to when the bed has cooled. It's still easy to remove the part though.
I ran the bed at 110C with PETG once (accidentally used an ABS gcode file) and that was solidly stuck on until the bed had cooled right down to ambient (20C) whereas prints run at 70C were removable once the bed was at about 40C.

Cheers,
Robin.
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DRTak
Re: New print surface material?
February 27, 2016 09:29AM
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Zedsquared
Just reporting on on my printbite experience with PETG, again no real problems. I run the bed at 70C and it grips fine, the only difference it it doesn't release quite as completely as ABS and PLA seem to when the bed has cooled. It's still easy to remove the part though.
I ran the bed at 110C with PETG once (accidentally used an ABS gcode file) and that was solidly stuck on until the bed had cooled right down to ambient (20C) whereas prints run at 70C were removable once the bed was at about 40C.

Cheers,
Robin.
PETG does not need printbite. It will adhere to the bed of glass without anything. Matter of fact. I was having issues with it grabbing glass too well. My bed setting was 87 deg plain glass. The print stuck so well it took off some of the glass when I took it off. Now I know that I have to have the bed a little cooler. And I have to adjust my z height.
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SysAdmin
Re: New print surface material?
February 27, 2016 10:23AM
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gmh39
Do the parts unstuck so well that you could theoretically "swipe" your finished parts off with an arm remotely and print again?

Has anyone thought of having the surface vibrate, so that the parts would free up on their own?
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Mutley3D
Re: New print surface material?
February 28, 2016 08:25PM
ZedSquared - Great to hear

DrTak - The situation you mention is reason enough to use some form of bed surface. However glass will not allow you to print ABS, or Nylons, or Polycarbonates, or a lot of other materials. Traditionally lots of different methods or substrate potions are used for each individual material mentioned herein but with PrintBite, you can print them all onto one surface and without using any potions or other harmful chemicals, and with the exception of some flexible filaments, they self release once the bed has cooled. Furthermore using PrintBite you will not need to use a brim meaning far less post print clean up.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2016 12:06AM by Mutley3D.
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evenbor
Re: New print surface material?
March 03, 2016 03:17PM
I have printbite, but cant get mine print to stick. Have tried to adjust hight, and clean with aceton. So went back to buildtak. For me this is overpriced garbage
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DjDemonD
Re: New print surface material?
March 03, 2016 03:30PM
I'd say there must be something going on, have you tried a slightly higher temperature first layer? Is it stuck down evenly and the heat getting through it. I only say this as my experience and that of almost everyone who has tried it is that it is as close as you can get to a definitive build plate material for fdm. It's permanent, sticks to almost everything, survives even a heavy head crash (I've tried this one a few times) and releases the parts when they're cool. I haven't tried buildtak but I won't be buying any when printbite does the trick so well.
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dave3d
Re: New print surface material?
March 03, 2016 06:13PM
Quote
evenbor
have printbite, but cant get mine print to stick. Have tried to adjust hight, and clean with aceton. So went back to buildtak. For me this is overpriced garbage

That is not my experience. You don't say what filament you are using or give any details.

The only garbage is what you wrote.
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Mutley3D
Re: New print surface material?
March 03, 2016 07:22PM
Quote
evenbor
I have printbite, but cant get mine print to stick. Have tried to adjust hight, and clean with aceton. So went back to buildtak. For me this is overpriced garbage

evenbore, the PrintBite must be fully and well adhered to your bed surface instead of using clips to hold it in place. You may also need to increase your bed and nozzle temps for bottom layer. I will PM you here (and on F.B.) and get this sorted for you. Let me assure you it wouldnt be available if it didnt work.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2016 07:23PM by Mutley3D.
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GrillSgt
Re: New print surface material?
March 10, 2016 06:04AM
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Mutley3D
PrintBite now supplied with adhesive tape attached, peel and stick. No cost increase either!
Got my ordered printbite this week. Thanks smiling smiley

Just a little thing:
It would be good to add that important note in your description about PrintBite on your website.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2016 06:09AM by GrillSgt.
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JamesK
Re: New print surface material?
March 11, 2016 08:13PM
So, without wanting to start any religious wars, do we know what this stuff is, or is that (understandably) not being disclosed?
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GrillSgt
Re: New print surface material?
March 23, 2016 03:23PM
Hi,

first days I was happy with the printbite surface. Since I've changed to E3DLite6 Hotend mounted on a wade extruder I have liability of PLA on the printbite surface. I've tried with several temperatures of the printbed (from 60 - 90° C) for the first layers.

At first it looks good. But if it prints to higher layers. I've paused the print to push the print on the bed and the complete print moved on the surface => almost no adhesion sad smiley
Any ideas?
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3DRapidClone
Re: New print surface material?
March 23, 2016 03:59PM
Do you have a picture of your first layer?
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Mutley3D
Re: New print surface material?
March 23, 2016 04:47PM
GrillSgt - sounds like the temperature you are printing at, ie REAL nozzle temp may have changed due to hotend change. Have you reset your firmware to reflect the correct thermistor table. Try increasing nozzle temp. Also give the surface a good clean when its cold.

With the sympton you describe I would also check that your heater is firmly attached to the glass. Maybe try lowering initial first layer aswell. Defo sounds like something has changed and you are not hitting the right temp conditions. Or the surface is dirty. In case of any doubt, PrintBite does not lose its adhesion.
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Treito
Re: New print surface material?
March 24, 2016 01:39AM
The most things have been said.
if you exchange the nozzle the distance between the nozzle and PrintBite may have been varied. So you are maybe either too close or too far away from the surface.
Also if you exchange the hotend the Thermistor values may have changed. Different Thermistors uses different B-values which you have to tell to your firmware this B-value. The cheap Chinese clones uses a B-value of 3950, but I am sure that the original E3D uses another value.
You should tell more about your printer (old hot-end and if the new one is original or a clone, type of printer) and we need pictures from the first layer including the skirt to help you.
It is impossible to loose adhesion only because of a nozzle-change.

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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GrillSgt
Re: New print surface material?
March 25, 2016 02:00PM
Thanks for your answers.
I've changed from the MK8 Extruder and hotend (attached on a chinese geeetech prusa i3). Now I'm using a Wade Extruder with the original E3D Lite6 hotend. I've changed the settings of the thermistor in the firmware as described in E3D's wiki. I've rechecked this evening and made a PID autotune after this.

Below are pictures showing the results printing the first layer:


This was printed at 205° and the heatbed up to 80° C. Layerheight of the fist layer is set to 0.3 mm.
I've cleaned the surface using window cleaner.

Happy easter from germany!

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 03:46PM by GrillSgt.
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Mutley3D
Re: New print surface material?
March 25, 2016 09:19PM
GrillSgt - Great to see you are having better results now.

Also, just had this independent review posted online, big thanks to Lindy [www.youtube.com]

PrintBite is also now available from the UK's largest and best filament supplier here [3dfilaprint.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 11:24PM by Mutley3D.
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GrillSgt
Re: New print surface material?
March 26, 2016 08:14AM
Well... this are the bad results smiling smiley

Anyway I know your print surface was working very great!
I've played with the temperature of the printbed this morning. I increased it to 90° C and have re-calibrated the bed while printing a large first layer. As it seems the higher temperature of the bed solved my issues. The first layer itself isn't perfect but still OK and has much more adhesion on the printbed.

Thanks to you guys for your support. Btw. I've ordered a capacity sensor to solve the pain with the bed levelling.
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Mutley3D
Re: New print surface material?
March 26, 2016 08:58AM
Printing without bonding agents requires a different approach to first layer heights and temperatures. Once you get dialled in the end results are much better than with bonding agents, both in terms of print quality, and part removal. It also promotes better practice all round with regard to your machine setup, which again, improves your end results aswell.

It is great to hear that you are having more success. Dont hesitate to contact me if you do get stuck (no pun intended).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2016 09:02AM by Mutley3D.
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PRZ
Re: New print surface material?
March 28, 2016 09:57PM
I have questions about adhesion of some products.

I have adhesion difficulties with 'silver' PLA (esun brand), which have very low adhesion and need much higher temperature than other PLA. I assume it contains aluminium. Someone tested it on this surface ?
Surprinsingly, I got slightly better result with 'silver' ABS (reprapper brand), while not super adhesive. Again, someone tested it ?

And something very special, but I am quite interested to try for mechanical parts, this is POM. This stuff is used for gears and bearings and does not adhere to anything, so printing it is reputed difficult (need plates with holes).
Tested on printbite ?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2016 10:53PM by PRZ.
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Treito
Re: New print surface material?
March 29, 2016 12:34AM
Do you have eSun silver PLA or PLA+? PLA sticks like other colours on PrintBite, PLA+ I have not tested yet.

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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3DRapidClone
Re: New print surface material?
March 29, 2016 02:55AM
Quote
PRZ
I have questions about adhesion of some products.

I have adhesion difficulties with 'silver' PLA (esun brand), which have very low adhesion and need much higher temperature than other PLA. I assume it contains aluminium. Someone tested it on this surface ?
Surprinsingly, I got slightly better result with 'silver' ABS (reprapper brand), while not super adhesive. Again, someone tested it ?

And something very special, but I am quite interested to try for mechanical parts, this is POM. This stuff is used for gears and bearings and does not adhere to anything, so printing it is reputed difficult (need plates with holes).
Tested on printbite ?

POM does not work on Printbite.
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PRZ
Re: New print surface material?
March 29, 2016 05:54AM
This is 'common' esun PLA. I have other PLA colors from esun and the silver one behave very differently, like if it was another material.

Quote
Treito
Do you have eSun silver PLA or PLA+? PLA sticks like other colours on PrintBite, PLA+ I have not tested yet.
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JamesK
Re: New print surface material?
March 29, 2016 07:03AM
Quote
PRZ
I am quite interested to try for mechanical parts, this is POM. This stuff is used for gears and bearings and does not adhere to anything, so printing it is reputed difficult

I got it to stick to blue tape with a coating of elmer's purple glue stick. But that's only the beginning of the problems - the warping is something incredible. I plan to have another go once I've built a heated enclosure.
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Treito
Re: New print surface material?
March 29, 2016 08:51AM
3D-Prima changed from PLA to PLA+. I am not sure if they had done this on their own decision or if they had to do so, because eSun changed it, too. Could you please have a look at the small label if there's written PLA- or PLA+-? Like I said with PLA I had no problems.

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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