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New print surface material?

Posted by Mutley3D 
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 12:49AM
PrintBite is much more robust than PEI as a hit with the nozzle doesn't cause any serious damage for example.
Mutley3d, are you sure with the temperatures? Tests on my own showed me that I need a print temperature about 205 degrees for PLA or are these for first layer only?
Good to hear about the hint for TPU, so I should start with 50 degrees or even colder? Recommended is 60 degrees.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 10:04AM
more robust then Pei?
pei has a higher melting temp then the typical nozzle temp even for ABS/PETG
hitting PEI with a hot nozzle does Zero damage in my experience.. not sure how much more robust then Zero damage you can get lol

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2016 10:05AM by makerparts.


Makerparts.ca
Your Canadian source for V-Slot Extrusion, CNC and 3D Printing Parts and Accessories.
we are proud to be an official Openbuilds distributor.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 10:46AM
makerparts - PEI is a thermoplastic, meaning it softens as it gets hotter. the Tg point of PEI is not especially high when compared with other industrial plastics. Its simply a thermoplastic material.

PrintBite is a thermoset material, this doesn't get softer with heat.

In any event they are two different materials, PrintBite adheres to a wider range of materials as testified to by other users.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 10:49AM
Quote
WZ9V
Mutley3D, can this be used on printers that probe the bed with a nozzle heated to print temps?

If you are talking about FSR style bed probing, ie hot nozzle hitting bed and registering on a force sensor located somewhere, the answer is Yes it can smiling smiley
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 10:56AM
Quote
Mutley3D

IF after the above you still have issues with your ABS you can seed the bed with a very very weak ABS/Acetone solution, paint it on when cold, then clean the bed again with just acetone and clean cloth/kitchen towel. OR wet a kitchen towel with acetone, drop a short piece of skirt onto the bed and wipe around, and then clean again with just acetone kitchen towel. This should sort you out good and proper. Note that you will only have to do this once! This will greatly increase adhesion with ABS and parts will still self release if not straight away, after the first couple of prints/heat cycles

this confuses me, you basically suggesting a ABS Slury to give adhesion. well you dont need printbite to use a slurry
if this is whats required for abs then forget the printbite, put slurry on glass.. and be done with it. sorry not trying to sound negative but this product is meant to aid in print adhesion
if you need to add another product to make it work. then it doesnt work as intended.


Makerparts.ca
Your Canadian source for V-Slot Extrusion, CNC and 3D Printing Parts and Accessories.
we are proud to be an official Openbuilds distributor.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 11:07AM
I think the idea was just to use this method as a priming exercise to get the material working, not that it needs to be repeated every print or anything like that.

Regarding the nozzle contact I use a circular piece on a kossel mini with FSR's and do ABL with the bed hot and nozzle hot - no issues for me.

Just make sure its very evenly stuck down, wipe it down with proper acetone before printing and use slightly higher temperatures (for ABS anyway) - that's my recipe. I haven't used PEI or buildtak and can't see a need to ever do so, this material works extremely well.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 11:55AM
Quote
makerparts
Quote
Mutley3D

IF after the above you still have issues with your ABS you can seed the bed with a very very weak ABS/Acetone solution, paint it on when cold, then clean the bed again with just acetone and clean cloth/kitchen towel. OR wet a kitchen towel with acetone, drop a short piece of skirt onto the bed and wipe around, and then clean again with just acetone kitchen towel. This should sort you out good and proper. Note that you will only have to do this once! This will greatly increase adhesion with ABS and parts will still self release if not straight away, after the first couple of prints/heat cycles

this confuses me, you basically suggesting a ABS Slury to give adhesion. well you dont need printbite to use a slurry
if this is whats required for abs then forget the printbite, put slurry on glass.. and be done with it. sorry not trying to sound negative but this product is meant to aid in print adhesion
if you need to add another product to make it work. then it doesnt work as intended.

makerparts - thank you for your input and apologies that this confused you - this was intended for someone who was not or could not get their printbed up to recommended temps. It turned out they were running their heatbed at 105c and not the recommended 120c. Under normal circumstances you do not need to do this.

If for some reason a user does not have a powerful enough heatbed, one can use this trick/workaround with an extremely weak solution as mentioned above, and then clean it off again before using, just to leave a trace element behind. This action is performed ONCE and never again, unlike traditional use of abs juice where you have to reapply it for every print. it is simply a helpful tip, not something that can be validly picked at as a flaw in the product.

edit: And when I say weak, I mean weak as in so weak you cannot even tell that the acetone has had anything added to it. a trace element and thats it.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2016 12:05PM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 12:16PM
if this is something that only needs to happen once and never again. and could affect users. might be something that you should apply to each product before it ships smiling smiley
just incase users do not have a strong enough heat bed.


Makerparts.ca
Your Canadian source for V-Slot Extrusion, CNC and 3D Printing Parts and Accessories.
we are proud to be an official Openbuilds distributor.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 12:36PM
Quote
makerparts
if this is something that only needs to happen once and never again. and could affect users. might be something that you should apply to each product before it ships smiling smiley
just incase users do not have a strong enough heat bed.

It was considered but decided against for a number of reasons. Ultimately it is not required.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2016 12:36PM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 02:46PM
Most reports I have read so far where about a PEI coating on an aluminium surface and I got warned about a nozzle crash. If the nozzle is hot the coating would be seriously damaged. So I never considered PEI and I never will consider it. Not for that price model.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 03:05PM
I have used the same sheet of pei for one year, with hundreds of prints on it so far
I have had many nozzle touches without issue
ive had a hot hozzle sitting on the surface for minutes without any damage

I dont usually clean the surface, dont need too.
I also tend to print with PETG


Makerparts.ca
Your Canadian source for V-Slot Extrusion, CNC and 3D Printing Parts and Accessories.
we are proud to be an official Openbuilds distributor.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 05:06PM
Quote
Mutley3D
Quote
WZ9V
Mutley3D, can this be used on printers that probe the bed with a nozzle heated to print temps?

If you are talking about FSR style bed probing, ie hot nozzle hitting bed and registering on a force sensor located somewhere, the answer is Yes it can smiling smiley

Yes that is what I was trying to ask. I know PEI can't handle that without leaving a little hole (unfortunately from experience).
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 05:57PM
makerparts - there is plenty of choice out there, the market in any sector commands choice. PrintBite is simply a product people can choose to use or not. There are some advantages with PrintBite given its compatibility with a wider range of materials when compared to PEI. It is also aimed to be more cost effective than PEI.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 06:11PM
Makerparts,

The thing was a moving and hot nozzle. Also there wasn't much material supported by PEI. The price is too high for this in my eyes.
I also would prefer BuildTak as it supports more material and has a comparable durable compared to PEI by half of the costs, but it's nearly impossible to damage PrintBite.
PEI would be something around my fifth choice for a print surface.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 07:55PM
Quote
Treito
Most reports I have read so far where about a PEI coating on an aluminium surface and I got warned about a nozzle crash. If the nozzle is hot the coating would be seriously damaged. So I never considered PEI and I never will consider it. Not for that price model.

That's a really thin coating and thus can be scratched off. PEI amber sheets from amazon can handle a ton of abuse. It's an engineering grade material for sure. That being said, the price for a normal sized one 12" x 12" is roughly the same between Printbite and PEI before shipping for about ~$30. I purchased a 380mm round after shipping and that cost me nearly $80. But PEI is difficult and very expensive to find in that size and form. Additionally the adhesive is already applied on Print bite whereas the PEI you have to do it manually.

If you don't print with Nylon or PC, PEI will do a really good job as well. However, Printbite also is opaque to IR and works well with DC42's Dual IR sensor which is a huge plus for me. PEI requires black oven stove paint and to baked to achieve the necessary conditions to operate with the Dual IR sensor. This things sealed the deal for me despite Printbite's high cost. Take note however, it may take a long time to arrive. It says to allow for 3 days prior to shipping depending on availability, but I purchased Printbite on 21st of March, but it was going to ship on the 28th and it is now the 13th of April and still no Printbite. It's on the way right now though. I have quite high expectations of it when it does arrive, quite hard to sit still since I'm so excited.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 08:06PM
3DRapidClone - apologies for the delays. Demand has been very strong, including repeat customers and volume orders. Standard sizes are shipped pretty quick, specials take a little longer and accepted yours was a little longer still. I am in the process of printing three clones to speed things up.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 08:12PM
never heard of a pei coating on aluminum, I have a piece of PEI plastic 1/32" thick mounted onto Boro Glass


Makerparts.ca
Your Canadian source for V-Slot Extrusion, CNC and 3D Printing Parts and Accessories.
we are proud to be an official Openbuilds distributor.
Re: New print surface material?
April 13, 2016 08:56PM
Quote
makerparts
never heard of a pei coating on aluminum, I have a piece of PEI plastic 1/32" thick mounted onto Boro Glass
Dauerdruckplatte

PEI was first used in German Repraps and migrated over here. This is the coated Aluminum plate.
Re: New print surface material?
April 14, 2016 03:37AM
In Germany you only got PEI coated aluminium as I decided to test BuildTak and as I bought my PrintBite afterwards. It was really hard to get and some products wasn't described properly.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
April 22, 2016 07:59PM
After waiting over a month, my Printbite 380mm round has finally arrived! Time to get started.
Re: New print surface material?
April 23, 2016 03:25AM
I see the conversation "detoured" a bit on to PEI vs Printbite, but unfortunately, it ended before I got the answers I was looking for smiling smiley

I will be buying an aluminum tooling plate for my printbed, and the seller is offering a PEI coating for additional 30Eur...
Now I am wondering, what are thickness tolerances of the Printbite and the adhesive used? By using a tooling plate, I expect to get the best flatness possible, and the coating should keep it that way. What about printbite? How much of an effect does it have on bed flatness?
As for printable materials, I see printbite has a nice list of "printable" stuff, is there such a list for PEI? I see (a few posts above) it has trouble sticking to Nylon and PC, anything else?
Re: New print surface material?
April 23, 2016 05:32AM
A PEI coating is not a good idea. It is very sensitive and will be easily damaged. Obviously there a full PEI beds available which are robust as well as PrintBite, BuildTak and FilaPrint. These are the only recommended more or less durable printed beds out there as far as I know.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
April 23, 2016 08:06PM
I just recieved and installed my Printbite surface. I attached it to my Glass as per the installation PDF and started calibrating as I am using DC42's IR sensor and suspected it would trigger differently.

So I got is all dialled in, ran a test print and the ABS didn't stick at all, just wound up in a nest stuck to the nozzle. My Bed was at 120c verified by laser thermometer and my nozzle at 210c. Tried again and noticed the nozzle was too high so let it cool tried recalibrating the trigger height but it was right on the money so tried printing again and again it was too high so I tried calibrating with the nozzle and bed at print temperatures and it was .12mm out so I ran G30 S-1 every 15 seconds or so while it was cooling down and the trigger height slowly changed from .95 @ 120c to 1.15 @ 21c which if the Printbite or adhesive tape was expanding when hot is the opposite of what I would expect, it seems as though maybe the printbite is becoming more transparent to IR as it gets hot making the trigger height drop.

I am not sure what to do about this. If I was only printing one material then I could just calibrate when hot but if I am printing other materials then the trigger height will be different depending on the bed temperature.
Re: New print surface material?
April 23, 2016 08:37PM
Quote
MightyMouth
I just recieved and installed my Printbite surface. I attached it to my Glass as per the installation PDF and started calibrating as I am using DC42's IR sensor and suspected it would trigger differently.

So I got is all dialled in, ran a test print and the ABS didn't stick at all, just wound up in a nest stuck to the nozzle. My Bed was at 120c verified by laser thermometer and my nozzle at 210c. Tried again and noticed the nozzle was too high so let it cool tried recalibrating the trigger height but it was right on the money so tried printing again and again it was too high so I tried calibrating with the nozzle and bed at print temperatures and it was .12mm out so I ran G30 S-1 every 15 seconds or so while it was cooling down and the trigger height slowly changed from .95 @ 120c to 1.15 @ 21c which if the Printbite or adhesive tape was expanding when hot is the opposite of what I would expect, it seems as though maybe the printbite is becoming more transparent to IR as it gets hot making the trigger height drop.

I am not sure what to do about this. If I was only printing one material then I could just calibrate when hot but if I am printing other materials then the trigger height will be different depending on the bed temperature.

Sounds like teething problems. I would suggest to always calibrate Z heights with the nozzle and heatbed at working temps, and should be standard practice. Your nozzle will be expanding as it heats getting closer to the bed. As it cools, it will shrink and effectively move away from the bed, hence your readings above.

Did you say nozzle is 210 for ABS or is this a typo? This is very low for ABS. For ABS set your nozzle to 240-245. Also, clean the bed when cold with a windex or lab grade acetone to ensure no greasy fingerprints etc. Do let us know how you get along.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2016 08:38PM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
April 23, 2016 09:10PM
I'm not sure how the nozzle would cause these readings as the trigger height is decreasing when hot meaning the carriages are closer to the bed whereas if the nozzle was expanding and somehow putting the sensor closer to the bed it would trigger while the carriages were further away showing a higher trigger height unless I am completely thinking backwards.

I usually print at 230c but the ABS I am using at the minute likes 210c for some reason.

I cleaned the bed as recommended before and after 2 heat cycles with 99% pure Acetone.
Re: New print surface material?
April 23, 2016 09:21PM
Quote
MightyMouth
I'm not sure how the nozzle would cause these readings as the trigger height is decreasing when hot meaning the carriages are closer to the bed whereas if the nozzle was expanding and somehow putting the sensor closer to the bed it would trigger while the carriages were further away showing a higher trigger height unless I am completely thinking backwards.

I usually print at 230c but the ABS I am using at the minute likes 210c for some reason.

I cleaned the bed as recommended before and after 2 heat cycles with 99% pure Acetone.

OK lets resolve in PM/email and then post resolution once working.
meanwhile...
Z height aside - your nozzle temp for ABS needs to be considerably higher - use 245 even if just for bottom layer. A full melt is essential for reliable adhesion. You can tune the temp down later.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2016 10:13PM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
April 24, 2016 03:07AM
dc42 suggested me for the mini height sensor board to use different macros (if available) for setting different heights for different print materials. My height differs about 0.3mm. One time I need a difference of 1.9mm and another time 2.2mm (printer 1).
You should always calibrate with working temperatures.
If you do no have macros you could also put the files directly to the print folder and maybe give them names that they will show up at top.
BTW the mini height sensor board works as well as a direct touching method. I have no differences except that my heater cartridge broke with the direct touching method caused by the small amount of 1.3mm movement of the nozzle head.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
April 24, 2016 11:04AM
I have had a hour to mess around with the printer and try to figure out what is happening. I am none the wiser but it seems that homing the printer is what throws the settings out. If I use a piece of paper to set the z height to .08 then check the trigger height multiple times it the trigger height stays within .01 but if I home the printer then check the trigger height the trigger height raises about .5 but it not accurate as putting the paper back and lowing the nozzle until it just touches the z height shows the same discrepancy as the trigger height.
Re: New print surface material?
April 24, 2016 11:35AM
OK so this is mainly a calibration issue - but please do also increase your nozzle temp as advised for ABS, otherwsie you will be doomed to ongoing failures once calibration is working correctly.
Re: New print surface material?
April 25, 2016 10:26AM
Quote
Dalius98
I see the conversation "detoured" a bit on to PEI vs Printbite, but unfortunately, it ended before I got the answers I was looking for smiling smiley

I will be buying an aluminum tooling plate for my printbed, and the seller is offering a PEI coating for additional 30Eur...
Now I am wondering, what are thickness tolerances of the Printbite and the adhesive used? By using a tooling plate, I expect to get the best flatness possible, and the coating should keep it that way. What about printbite? How much of an effect does it have on bed flatness?
As for printable materials, I see printbite has a nice list of "printable" stuff, is there such a list for PEI? I see (a few posts above) it has trouble sticking to Nylon and PC, anything else?

Ali tooling plate is possibly a bit overkill, some views may differ. It is a large mass to get heated and may struggle to get to temp unless using pwerful PSU and heater. If it is on a cart or moving bed type printer, its quite a mass to be moving.

PrintBite will be as flat as the material it is adhered to, and meets a number of industrial spec requirements. Its thickness is very consistent. I recommend using mirror tile or a float glass (boro or a toughened glass) from a glass supplier. Make sure the edges have been bevelled by the supplier (ie ground and deburred) to avoid stress cracks when heating. Avoid plain window glass.

HTH
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