Re: New print surface material?
October 19, 2015 03:17PM
Got my 200mm square sheet and installed it on my i3 with mk3 aluminium heatbed, using bulldog/binder clips for now. I can auto level using an inductive sensor just had to change the probe offset in Marlin to include the thickness of the printbite sheet. The clearance between my sensor's detection distance and the nozzle to the printbite is only 0.3mm but it is enough for now (going to change to a capacitative sensor later anyway and I am running my inductive sensor at 5v so the detection distance is reduced). First print with ABS and I'm really impressed, great first layer with nice smooth finish. The part remained well attached down to around 85 deg C when I could snap it off the printbite.

No more hairspray and since I was previously printing directly onto the aluminium bed, no more little piece of kapton tape over the thermistor hole, and it loses heat a little more slowly than the bare aluminium so less bed cooling in my cold garage, so result all round. Well done Mutley3d.

I would love a 200mm circular piece for my kossel mini now.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2015 03:19PM by DjDemonD.
Re: New print surface material?
October 23, 2015 07:13PM
Quote
DjDemonD
Got my 200mm square sheet and installed it on my i3 with mk3 aluminium heatbed, using bulldog/binder clips for now. I can auto level using an inductive sensor just had to change the probe offset in Marlin to include the thickness of the printbite sheet. The clearance between my sensor's detection distance and the nozzle to the printbite is only 0.3mm but it is enough for now (going to change to a capacitative sensor later anyway and I am running my inductive sensor at 5v so the detection distance is reduced). First print with ABS and I'm really impressed, great first layer with nice smooth finish. The part remained well attached down to around 85 deg C when I could snap it off the printbite.

No more hairspray and since I was previously printing directly onto the aluminium bed, no more little piece of kapton tape over the thermistor hole, and it loses heat a little more slowly than the bare aluminium so less bed cooling in my cold garage, so result all round. Well done Mutley3d.

I would love a 200mm circular piece for my kossel mini now.

DjDemonD I am glad to hear of your success and that of others via the various feedback im getting. Fantastic! 200mm circular piece coming up smiling smiley
Re: New print surface material?
October 23, 2015 07:57PM
Just like to add, tried with Nylon last night, printed worm gear so thin and tall, head 265, bed 115.
Printed spot on. Released off bed once cooled no pressure, felt like no diff to printing abs.
My first time with Nylon so don't know how hard it is to normally print with it
Re: New print surface material?
October 25, 2015 02:04PM
Quote
IMarsbar
Just like to add, tried with Nylon last night, printed worm gear so thin and tall, head 265, bed 115.
Printed spot on. Released off bed once cooled no pressure, felt like no diff to printing abs.
My first time with Nylon so don't know how hard it is to normally print with it

Nylon is traditionally known as a problem material to print. Often wood or Garolite, even cardboard and tapes have been used with varying degrees of success. These clearly can be a pain due to levelling and height issues not to mention the messing about setting up new bed material just for a Nylon print.

Looking like its now a one size fits all with regard to a printing surface for differing materials. I have also printed Polycarbonate which is known to be a problem for adhesion, onto PrintBite. Sticks exactly the same as everything else and self releases once cooled. Howzat smiling smiley
Re: New print surface material?
October 25, 2015 02:08PM
Sounds good, do you have a US distributor?

Quote
Mutley3D
Quote
IMarsbar
Just like to add, tried with Nylon last night, printed worm gear so thin and tall, head 265, bed 115.
Printed spot on. Released off bed once cooled no pressure, felt like no diff to printing abs.
My first time with Nylon so don't know how hard it is to normally print with it

Nylon is traditionally known as a problem material to print. Often wood or Garolite, even cardboard and tapes have been used with varying degrees of success. These clearly can be a pain due to levelling and height issues not to mention the messing about setting up new bed material just for a Nylon print.

Looking like its now a one size fits all with regard to a printing surface for differing materials. I have also printed Polycarbonate which is known to be a problem for adhesion, onto PrintBite. Sticks exactly the same as everything else and self releases once cooled. Howzat smiling smiley
Re: New print surface material?
October 26, 2015 03:31PM
Mutley3D:
I sent you a PM on 10/23/2015 11:11 AM but no answer by the moment.
Any problem?
Re: New print surface material?
October 26, 2015 09:58PM
VincentM - PM sent
Re: New print surface material?
October 27, 2015 07:39PM
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2015 07:56PM by ElmoC.
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 05:07AM
Hi,

what did you use for fixing the bed to glass? Is there a cheap way? I only find adhesive material with high temperature resistents with a thickness of 1mm. That would mean I would have to fix the complete surface which would mean that the price of one piece would be doubled. sad smiley

Best regards,

Sven


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 06:54AM
I've not got mine yet but I was planning on sticking it down with either kapton or blue tape around the edges. Its how I've stuck my glass to the heated bed and works fine smiling smiley
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 07:58AM
Hi Treito, asbo, - Use a double sided tape for sticking down vinyl flooring. Its thin, cheap effective and available from all decent homeware or hardware stores. Otherwise you have the 3M 468P tape option but this is not so cheap. It is advised to stick down the whole surface completely. If you stick it down around the edges it may not work as it may bow or warp under heat stress, and you will also not get the same heat transfer. Please follow the instructions available at [mutley3d.com]
All orders upto 5pm yesterday evening have shipped. If it hasn't arrived yet it will be with you in the next couple of days smiling smiley
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 08:01AM
I was asking because the vinyl flooring tape is only capable up to 70°C according to the information.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 08:13AM
Quote
Treito
I was asking because the vinyl flooring tape is only capable up to 70°C according to the information.

Tape for Vinyl flooring (linoleum) with acrylic adhesive will do the job. Cheap and effective. If you wish to spend more, you can use 3M tape.
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 08:37AM
Like this one?
[www.tesa.com]
It is hard to find such a tape in Germany as I do not have further information. There are no information about adhesive material.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 02:10PM
Quote
Mutley3D
Hi Treito, asbo, - Use a double sided tape for sticking down vinyl flooring. Its thin, cheap effective and available from all decent homeware or hardware stores. Otherwise you have the 3M 468P tape option but this is not so cheap. It is advised to stick down the whole surface completely. If you stick it down around the edges it may not work as it may bow or warp under heat stress, and you will also not get the same heat transfer. Please follow the instructions available at [mutley3d.com]
All orders upto 5pm yesterday evening have shipped. If it hasn't arrived yet it will be with you in the next couple of days smiling smiley

Received mine and have trimmed and fitted it with double sided tape from Screwfix. Bit excessive buying 50m for £7.99 given I only used 800mm but the trade counter is on the doorstep.

For PLA on an Ormerod 1 would you raise the bed temperature above the suggested 65c? I've been printing on an unheated bed using blue painters tape as I could never get kapton tape to work.

Dave
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 02:47PM
I need a 215x215mm piece...... is that available? Is it available in different colors? I need as light as possible, white if available..... Testing with a Ormerud IR sensor....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2015 02:48PM by patrickrio.
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 06:58PM
patrickrio - pm sent

Fatlab - 65-70 or thereabouts, each printer will be slightly different but around that temp for PLA
Re: New print surface material?
October 28, 2015 09:24PM
Sorry if this has been asked before, but what's the rated life of a piece? How many prints on the same area could I expect before it needs replacing?
Re: New print surface material?
October 29, 2015 09:25AM
I am still waiting for an offer...


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
October 29, 2015 10:45AM
Quote
pugzor
Sorry if this has been asked before, but what's the rated life of a piece? How many prints on the same area could I expect before it needs replacing?

Hi Pugzor, should last a lifetime!

Treito - see email
Re: New print surface material?
October 29, 2015 01:04PM
During a search yesterday I came across this double sided tape.

High Temp Double Sided Tape to 120C
and
More High performance High temp tape

Mutley3D, it might be useful to contact these manufacturers to see if you can do a deal. More product for you, more profit, and a useful addition for your customers.
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 12:19PM
Mutley3D,

I've been trying to print onto the PrintBite from my Ormerod 1 for the last couple of days and I'm having major problems getting the first layer to stick to the surface. I'm now using Faberdashery 1.75mm PLA having moved off some bulk white PLA that just wouldn't stay put full stop.

The settings I've tried are all of the combinations in 5 degree steps of bed from 55c to 70c and hot end 185c to 210c. I've cleaned the print bite with both pure acetone and isopropyl alcohol but it makes no noticeable difference. The Ormerod 1 was previously printing onto blue painters masking tape with a cold bed and 185c at the hot end and stuck every time. I'm using Slicr to generate the gcode files and I've tried both 0.24 and 0.3mm first layer heights. The problem starts with the initial loop of the print where it does around 60mm movement before the filament is extruded. After that the next 50-80mm appears to stick but then lifts as soon as there is any lateral pull. When the loop does complete successfully its then the first layer infill which fails to adhere at the edges of fulling in a shape.

The 200x214mm bed is level to within 0.05mm at the centre and corners before level calibration. Z axis homing is done with a sheet of A4 paper when the hot end is at temperature and the bed temperature checks out with an infrared thermometer. I've tried setting Z0 to when the nozzle first contacts the paper and also at a further -0.05mm and -0.10mm respectively. The lower Z0 gives slightly better performance but another -0.05 would have the nozzle taking the weight of the print head.

Any advice would be appreciated as I'm running out of ideas.

Regards

Dave

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2015 12:21PM by Fatlab.
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 12:48PM
I do not use PrintBite for now (trying to give Mutley3D a broad hint), but I have some experience regarding Kapton tape, Blue Masking tap and so on. First of all, one German company suggests to print the first layer with 230°C. Regarding PLA I got bad experience to print that cool like you So I suggest to print the first layer with 230°C and then with 210°C unless you get now stringing. Only in this case I would reduce the temperature. Secondly if you use a glossy surface or a glossy like surface it is a good idea to print the first layer slowly especially if you print ABS but this is also not a bad idea for PLA. How fast did you try to print?
Last but not least please provide a picture of your skirt and your settings of your slicing software.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 03:03PM
Fatlab - It can be a fine line to get the material to "switch on" and it sounds like you were almost there. Try increasing bed temp to 75 and nozzle up a bit say to 220? go back to your usual height settings and try again with the increased temps. Dont get too close as you will create lips where the filament is too squashed and it will catch on the hotend and pull up. Try using a windex or other window cleaner, acetone should be ok, but dont use alcohol as this can leave a film behind.
Essentially PrintBite will typically require slightly warmer temps than you might be used to.
Also, try to prime your nozzle before the print start.

Treito - hint noted and you have a piece on the way (hint) smiling smiley

Quote
Fatlab
Mutley3D,

I've been trying to print onto the PrintBite from my Ormerod 1 for the last couple of days and I'm having major problems getting the first layer to stick to the surface. I'm now using Faberdashery 1.75mm PLA having moved off some bulk white PLA that just wouldn't stay put full stop.

The settings I've tried are all of the combinations in 5 degree steps of bed from 55c to 70c and hot end 185c to 210c. I've cleaned the print bite with both pure acetone and isopropyl alcohol but it makes no noticeable difference. The Ormerod 1 was previously printing onto blue painters masking tape with a cold bed and 185c at the hot end and stuck every time. I'm using Slicr to generate the gcode files and I've tried both 0.24 and 0.3mm first layer heights. The problem starts with the initial loop of the print where it does around 60mm movement before the filament is extruded. After that the next 50-80mm appears to stick but then lifts as soon as there is any lateral pull. When the loop does complete successfully its then the first layer infill which fails to adhere at the edges of fulling in a shape.

The 200x214mm bed is level to within 0.05mm at the centre and corners before level calibration. Z axis homing is done with a sheet of A4 paper when the hot end is at temperature and the bed temperature checks out with an infrared thermometer. I've tried setting Z0 to when the nozzle first contacts the paper and also at a further -0.05mm and -0.10mm respectively. The lower Z0 gives slightly better performance but another -0.05 would have the nozzle taking the weight of the print head.

Any advice would be appreciated as I'm running out of ideas.

Regards

Dave
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 03:35PM
I found that window cleaner did work better then acetone, no idea why tongue sticking out smiley

I did have to have my bed temp hotter then normal as obviously got another layer for heat to get through, did you fix it down with double sided tape or clamped down?

for bed height mine is almost touching bed, can't get paper under it, just print and forget for me, just wish other parts of my printer would stop breaking
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 05:08PM
What window cleaner are you using?

I have alcohol and acetone but it seems that's not the best stuff to use.
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 05:15PM
Quote
WZ9V
What window cleaner are you using?

Clean n' Fresh window and glass cleaner,

Is just a generic one i got from the £1 store in village.just sprayed on warm bed, wiped with toilet roll and then let it heat up to full temp. 125 for ABS for me with me placing a leather folder on bed, then it cools down to 95 as it dont have enough power as i need to upgrade but still works perfect.
managed to print 5 good items before it needed a clean, quick wipe and ready for another 5. these are also large items i have been printing.
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 05:22PM
Thanks guys, after posting I'd come to the conclusion about increasing the temps. I'd not changed the bed from 60c but had started a print at 220c and also increased the first layer height to 0.4 from 0.24 which seemed to make a difference. At least until the x-axis assembly slipped off its slide bearing then it was back to square one....

So I'll up the bed to 70c and set the first layer print temp to 220c as it feels like that would work IF I can get the initial Z0 setting sorted. For setting Z0, I've been putting a sheet of 80gsm paper under the nozzle at printing temperature and dropping the head until I can just feel resistance. If I then drop it a further 0.05mm I can still PUSH the paper with resistance but starting to feel a vibration. If I drop it a further 0.05mm I can then only PULL the paper to get it to move, not push it and feel a lot of vibration.

Assuming the right answer if one of those three to set Z0 which do people use?
Secondly against your Z0 calibration method what first layer height do you use if you have a 0.5mm nozzle?

As for the slicr settings, what's the best way to share those, upload the exported settings?

Regards

Dave
Re: New print surface material?
October 30, 2015 06:04PM
Hello Dave,

the paper method did not work properly for me in any case. I often do this per trial and error that means I start at a higher point and slowly reduce the settings until the filament sticks to the bed. I also use the original z-probe to get a hint how far away I am from the bed surface but at least it is more accurate than I ever have thought.

@Mutley3D Many thanks, but I meant something else.

Best regards,

Sven


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: New print surface material?
October 31, 2015 12:01AM
So mutley asked me to post here regarding my experiences so I figured I'll share.

I ordered the printbite thinking the tape would be easy to find, unfortunately it was not, the closest tape(in canada online or retail) I could find to what he recommended actually melted under the needed 120+c bed temperature. Mutley was nice enough to express ship out a roll of the tape so I could adhere it to the glass and it's worked flawlessly since. In the meantime I was able to get limited success only using binder clips, but I had to keep the printer enclosed and the heat at about 125c and my print area was confined to about a 60x60mm work space in the center of my bed where it wouldn't warp.

Got the bed all attached with the proper tape today And I've printed some rather large ABS prints(170mmx70mm) that I'd never have been able to print before so I'm super happy with it. One thing I didn't expect is how nice the bottom layer turns out, I can hardly see printlines at all and looks almost like injected plastic, compared to the hairspray splotchyness I had before it's a crazy improvement. Once the beds cooled to about 60c the print lifts off with no effort. Just gotta remember to keep my greasy digits off my printbed, but even then acetone has cleaned off the grease nicely and I have lots of that handy.

I have to say the tape is required, the printbite itself is too flexible to be adhere by only a few points and flexes. Possibly if you're attaching it to something like a 100mmx100mm bed you might get away without it, but I wouldn't recommend that. Luckily mutley has informed me that he's getting PET adhesive sheets that will ship with printbite to help those who can't find the required vinyl flooring tape.

I've never used PEI or any other similar build surfaces, but compared to ABS slurry / Hairspray / voodoo magic it's incredibly easy to use. And considering I was going through a can of hairspray a week it'll pay for itself soon enough.

Side note: what i found worked well for leveling my print head with the printbite was getting it close then printing a large flat pane the size of my bed, after a few layers I could see what corners(4 point level bed) were lifting and I adjusted them then restarted the print and repeat. Maybe I'm crazy but it seems like the printbite wants the print head to be smooshed into it more so than glass.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2015 12:04AM by vendeta44.
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