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Best bang for money?

Posted by Anthonis 
Best bang for money?
November 16, 2015 04:21PM
Hi guys,
I need to make some prototypes for one of my projects.So decided I need a 3d pinter. No point spending a lot since might only use it couple times. But what I don't want is to buy cheapo crap which will not work properly and I won't get any support... I also want to be able use high temp extruders like e3d so I can do some nylon etc.. Dual extruder sounds even better to me as that gives me even more freedom. So I started with ebay and found this - CTC 3D Printer - Dual Extruder - MK8
Looks decent but as I understand might not work with some filaments?
I went on aliexpress and there found couple others:
geeetech dual extruder delta
Geetech has some kinda different board so dunno how support will be on it
Or :
Dual Extruder Borlee 3D Printer DIY Kit 60D
These ones don't even know what board they use to start with grinning smiley
I have seen some Wanhao printers. Is there anything else I could go for? Best bang for money with reasonable support?
Thanks
Re: Best bang for money?
November 19, 2015 09:40AM
If you really planning on using it only a couple of times, wouldn't it be better to just order outsource your prints to some 3d printing company? Some of them even have industrial grade hardware with way better print quality and material selection a mere consumer peasants like us can hope to buy in our lives.
Re: Best bang for money?
November 19, 2015 10:33AM
Quote
murmurian
If you really planning on using it only a couple of times, wouldn't it be better to just order outsource your prints to some 3d printing company? Some of them even have industrial grade hardware with way better print quality and material selection a mere consumer peasants like us can hope to buy in our lives.

I have to AGREE, you don't buy a cow when you only want a couple glasses of milk!


Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse
Re: Best bang for money?
November 19, 2015 01:48PM
I did consider that in first time. But it would be boring really... I like new toys, I want to see how it works and who knows maybe I will have more use for itwinking smiley
Also there is always delay when you order stuff, where here I will be able to do changes on fly...

So are there no owners to advice on selection I have above?
Re: Best bang for money?
November 19, 2015 02:11PM
Hi guys,

I don't like any of them. Acrylic sucks in both Delta or Prusa printers.
Warning : dual extrusion are not for newbies, you multiply issues by 2.
As they both have rubbish hotends, it will be a nightmare. Definitely.

There's hundred of "what should I buy" topics.
You'd rather read them first. winking smiley

++JM
Re: Best bang for money?
November 19, 2015 02:27PM
Trouble is that there are hundreds of single extrusion printers around and its even harder to short list selection. More likely double extrusion will mean new improvements and boards which is what everyone is expecting.
And it does sound nice to have two different materials printed at same time. Yes there will be problems for sure, but I guess even with single extrusion people get a lot problems too?
Re: Best bang for money?
November 19, 2015 02:40PM
Make magazine just released their best of 2015 list of printers.

[makezine.com]
Re: Best bang for money?
November 19, 2015 11:23PM
3d printing isn't plug in and play...yet. That being said adding an extra extruder just complicates things. If you want to go the prebuilt or reputable kit route look at Printrbot. The play is $400, and simple metal is $600.

If you want to go the reprap route look at the prusa i3. Very large user base, simple construction. Get a kit from a reputable source like Josef Prusa himself or self source the parts yourself.


Prusa i3 Rework - Ramps 1.4 - E3d Lite6 - Full Graphic LCD Controller
Re: Best bang for money?
November 20, 2015 05:50AM
Hi guys,
Quote
Anthonis
Trouble is that there are hundreds of single extrusion printers around and its even harder to short list selection. More likely double extrusion will mean new improvements and boards which is what everyone is expecting.
And it does sound nice to have two different materials printed at same time. Yes there will be problems for sure, but I guess even with single extrusion people get a lot problems too?
Double extrusion only means you've got two extruders. Don't expect new improvements or new boards either.
On the two kits you selected, you've got the worst extruders, improvements only for the seller to make more money.
They use the most standard 16 bits board, it's actualy outdated of course.
Good points on printers are well known. As I can see, you don't know what's important to get.
That's why my advice was to get some skills reading older "what can I buy" topics.
You haven't read that pinned topic too : "http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,290792"

When you get your first 3D printer, you don't have any skills and don't ever know what you can expect from it.
Appreciate it's realy difficult to find where do come issues and what to do to fix it.
If you get a complicated machine, you will probably be lost and be tempted to give up.
There's a lot of printers on CraigList which have never worked properly.
I have some dual extuder printers working, but I still don't print in dual mode very often,
because designing dual material parts take time, you can't download a lot of interesting dual colour things, and changing filaments is boring.
Anyways, when you start, you have much hundred of things to care about before thinking about dual colour printings !
From setup and getting your bed flat, then make plastic stick to the bed, then the graal : getting nice prints (as good as others can do).
Last, good dual extruders are expensive. You probably won't be able to find a good one in a kit.

Be humble, make it simple. You'll upgrade later if you realy enjoy 3D printing and if you are still interested by dual colour printing. winking smiley

++JM
Re: Best bang for money?
November 20, 2015 10:00AM
A good musician will make cheapo instrument to sound wonderfully ( to the hardware capability)

No because you have a Ferrari it means you know how to drive it
Same way with 3d printer

I really think, that a "cheapo" Chinese made kits, could bring possibly much of frustration,
but at same time, to bring you lot of joy, satisfaction and accomplishment!

Personally, I learn things like:
Learn how to crow
How to walk
How to run
Then how to fly

For every step, you will learn different thing and all depend what are you willing to....

My cent.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2015 10:03AM by Bobyni.
Re: Best bang for money?
November 21, 2015 03:21AM
If you need a few specific models, out source. If you want to get in to 3d printing, start simple and upgrade. That said, you want a printer that can be upgraded and the reprap family printers are the best for that.
"Best bang for the buck" is always to source the parts your self and make your own "kit", it will cost you lots of time tho and any experience from 3D-printing will be very helpful. The problem will be support but if you do a Prusa i3 or Kossel the reprap forums will be better then most commercial supports.
For a cheap start this one don't look too bad. Just don't get your expectations too high it is a cheap china kit.
Re: Best bang for money?
November 21, 2015 05:35AM
Well ok then should I go for prusa type or delta type printer? If prusa then which one on ali looks like good selection?
Re: Best bang for money?
November 21, 2015 11:22AM
Hi guys,

Start simple and upgrade is time and money consuming.

Even if every component is important, avoid acrylic frames for any printer (except box type mini printers).
For Prusa i3 look for : aluminium frame, ACME screws (or preferabily motors with ACME threaded shafts), and a proper E3D alike hotend.
Actualy I builded a Prusa i3 dual extruder BOM for a member :
Quote
J-Max
To work together faster; I have created your online BOM.
++JM
You can have a look and make up your mind about what I consider important for a printer.

If you want a Kossel alike printer, look for : MGN12 guides (or Vslot/MakerSlides), proper extuder like this one*, E3D alike hotend, at last 25A PSU, heatbed.
And especialy check the printable area is sufficient for your needs.

*On that extruder, the filament is properly guided since the gear, so it can't jam out the feeder.

++JM
Re: Best bang for money?
November 21, 2015 11:55AM
I suggest you read through the instructable linked in my sig, below, to learn about how the cheapo printer makers bring the cost of the machines down by making you work more to get a decent print from their machines. Most cheap machines are so poorly made that there is no upgrade path that doesn't involve rebuilding the machine completely. The "starter printer" idea is a fantasy. It is more likely to turn you off from 3D printing than than it is to inspire you to build/buy a better printer.

If all you need are a few prints and you can't afford a good machine, use one of the services that uses industrial machines to do the printing. They have different printing technologies available- FDM printing isn't suitable/optimal for all models. If you want to play and produce some good prints, spend the money on a well made printer from the start. That way you can focus on your print and not the tweaks and tricks and other BS that goes along with getting a cheap POS printer to produce what you want (if it can at all). Don't waste your time or money on a cheesy machine.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2015 11:57AM by the_digital_dentist.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Best bang for money?
November 21, 2015 12:52PM
I am not sure if I can agree with the sense of : the cheap I 3D printer is garbage or can not print!
I am building after a year long my 60x60x60cm Cartesian type aluminum cube with lineal carriage that had me progressing very slowly.
To the point, I just bought an economical 3d printer that, in my opinion, after the build, and initial calibration, the prints are quite good for my test.
I even tried to accelerate from 80mm/s build to 160mm/s ( of course expecting lower quality) but it turned out great prints as well!

So this little prusa i3 alteration of one has not only solidified my knowledge ( still I think I know nothing) about 3d printing, but also, to boost my interest on finishing my original build.

I guess, it all comes down on what do you have as background for technical knowledge and troubleshooting skill to tackle what type of printer.

For me, my acrylic printer is servicing me well for the moment.
Will see in a year how the acrylic is holding and what my journey will be!!
Cheers!
Re: Best bang for money?
November 21, 2015 03:13PM
Hi guys,

Bobyni, your printer have at last ACME Z rods. It's a good point.
Your pictures are so dark and small I can't realy figure out what kind of extruder/hotend you own.
So it's hard to tell what's good or bad, and tell you why.
You don't need a year to make up your mind about acrylic frames.
Just heat your bed at 105°C temperature for a medium print of 10 hours, and then let's talk again about acrylic frames, would you ? winking smiley

++JM
Re: Best bang for money?
November 21, 2015 07:05PM
Direct drive extruder smiling smiley
Attachments:
open | download - image.jpg (450 KB)
Re: Best bang for money?
November 22, 2015 10:20AM
Hi guys,

Bobyni, I will honnestly tell you what I think about your extruder, and tell you why.


1/ direct drive extruders are not exlusively good or bad.
What we know is direct drive likes high torque motors, obviously.
I'm not sure, but I believe yours is under 0,4 Nm (<60oz.in). To me it's not enough.
Note direct drive extruders, even with 0.9° motors offers a lower resolution than geared extruders.

2/ there's two factors that drives a filament properly.
a_the drive gear, preferabily with medium to fine hobs and a groove to centre the filament : yours have big teeth andno groove, that's not a good point.
b_the filament must be hold just out of the gear. That prevents the filament to bend if the flow is to fast or the filament you use bends easily.
the distance between the gear and the hole is about 7mm on your extruder. You can't print flexible filament like Ninjaflex or Nylon, and probably others (soft ABS...).

Next points are very important : heat, heatbreak, coldend and heatsink.

3/ heat break, which is often the theaded part between the heatblock and the heatsink. only a machined thin wall area can stop heat to rise over the heatbreak.
on your hotend you don't have any proper heatbreak. So the threaded tubing is probably at the same temperature as your heatblock,
and obviously the temperature rise over that threaded tubing. That means your filament melts too early and you loose pushing capacity and probably your flow management is low.

4/ heatsink, it's the component that low the temperature on the coldend. It should be very efficient to maintain low temperature as close as possible of the heatblock.
Filament must melt in the heatblock only. What temperature does in your system : the heatbloc is at melting temperature, then the threaded tubing too.
That one is screwed on an aluminium bloc, that act as a thermal mass. On that mounting bloc is bolted your heatsink AND your motor.
So heat diffuses half on the motor and the heatsink. That's a very bad point. So the heatsink hopefully stays cool, it probably cool a bit the mounting block
but not very efficiently because it's just screwed on. So the mounting block is not cold, and the motor probably gets the same temperature as the block after a while.
It's not good for the motor too because it can be hot by itself and need no extra help for that. Motors hates overheating. Note the mounting plate is also fixed on that block. What a shame !

To me, it's one of the worst system ever. And aluminium arm and metal mounting do not balance that issues, on the contrary, it helps to distribute heat all over.
Maybe the weakest point of your printer is not the acrylic frame, but the extruder part. I wish it could be better, sorry.
Compares to a hexagon hotend for example. Heat stays IN the hotend and don't rise over the heatbreak.

++JM
Re: Best bang for money?
November 22, 2015 05:59PM
:-)
JM
I see...
Mine came with a fan that it was installed after.
As for the moment, the longest prints from my printer was about 1.25h
And no issue from the extruder @ 210 C
Heated bed @ 60C
No cooling fan for the extruded material.
Yes, I have red a lot of post about extruder having issues, but ABS and not PLA.

I was planning to have ED3 V6 clone installed and convert the direct to remote , this way, my X axis would be less weight and the steeper work less.
My motor is a 1.68 A( I think) SL42STH40-1684MA-23
50 oz- In holding torque

Cheers!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2015 05:59PM by Bobyni.
Re: Best bang for money?
November 23, 2015 04:20AM
Hi,

I did not expected that was that kind of motor, because it's heavy for a printhead.
If the printhead carries a heavy motor, It can induce vibrations on quick direction changes and reduces possible acceleration.
Anyways, the most important is the fun you get from your printer.
Did you printed your fan mount/duct ?

++JM
Re: Best bang for money?
November 23, 2015 01:43PM
It came with the Fan duct for the extruDer!
I am using the same STL file that the seller provided and to modified it in blender
To allow the mounting of a inductive sensor for autoleveling!
Re: Best bang for money?
November 24, 2015 11:34AM
So no good offers here:/
Re: Best bang for money?
November 24, 2015 02:14PM
It all depends what you want and wullng to pay for !
If money is not an issue then as other have suggested, go for a good branded or source your own parts and build.
If want have fun on the way then an economic printer will have plenty of that.
Best bang for the buck.......
I feel mine for what I want and need is a good choice.
But ask J- Max he would tell you other thing as we have discussed here.

Good luck for your hunt!
Re: Best bang for money?
November 26, 2015 08:02AM
Hi guys,

It's not about spending more money.
Source components by yourself is all about saving money while getting better components winking smiley
As I can see here and there, cheap printers brings mostly issues not big fun.
Read at last titles and make up your mind winking smiley

++JM
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