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PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"

Posted by Skimmy 
PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 05:26PM
Hi!

Surfing 3D-printing groups on google+, I got the impression, that other countries than germany are still struggling with getting an "allrounder" - printbed?! My printbed does need little to no maintenance, every now and then (I speak in weeks) I give it a little lovely cleaning-rub with cloth and gasoline used for cleaning purposes for 3 seconds to get rid of dust and stuff, and thats all. It works with nearly all kind of simple filament like PLA, ABS, Flex, PET, etc. Stuff like nilon or peek is not his strength, though.
Since I post stuff about my printers, every other day I get questions about my "Dauerdruckplatte" and people claiming, that they never heard about it and can't find it to buy in e.g. USA.


Is that so? Or did I only read posts of people without proper knowledge?

Are you americans still taping and glueing your printbed? Or slushing it with some aceton-abs mixture? Or using glued on plastic or PEI sheets?

That sounds pretty cumbersome!?


Mein Bautagebuch CoreXY v2 - E3D-V6 / RAMPS / TMC2100 / Repetier
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VDX
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:03PM
... could be, here in Germany the people are more testing and have access to more university equipment to try ideas winking smiley

I've tested some fixation methodes in the last 8 to 9 years ... from acetone-juice to "maltbeer" and some high-tech coatings too ...

My last prints on a heated bed were simply fixed with hair spray on a heated glass tile, I've bought in a furniture shop (Ikea) in a 4-er set for below 10 €uros ( [www.ikea.com] )

The hair spray on a clean heated glass tile is a strong hold, but releases automatically when cooling down ... but it can crack the glass, when trying to remove it while hot!

So I have two or three of the tiles in work, to declamp the printed parts with tile, clamp a new one and print on it.

One coating can hold two to three times, but I was refreshing it after removing the parts ...


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:08PM
PEI seems to be quite well known and readily available in the USA, but is expensive and hard to find here in the UK. I ended up importing a sheet from amazon.com. See [miscsolutions.wordpress.com].



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:08PM
@VDX: Yeah, but... thats not the point of the thread. I am asking for PEI-coated aluminium and telling about it's supremacy. And I am questioning, why there is noone selling it in "capitalist--all-is-possible-USA" winking smiley

Please, lets not talk about all the other good and cheap working methods how to get a print stick grinning smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2015 06:12PM by Skimmy.


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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:11PM
Quote
dc42
PEI seems to be quite well known and readily available in the USA, but is expensive and hard to find here in the UK. I ended up importing a sheet from amazon.com. See [miscsolutions.wordpress.com].

Yes, but that's only a step between. And the printbed will not be flat this way.


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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:17PM
As a US user who's tried BuildTak, I'd love a PEI-coated aluminum plate -- but why? It seems excessive.
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:17PM
Quote
Skimmy
Quote
dc42
PEI seems to be quite well known and readily available in the USA, but is expensive and hard to find here in the UK. I ended up importing a sheet from amazon.com. See [miscsolutions.wordpress.com].

Yes, but that's only a step between. And the printbed will not be flat this way.

What way? I use a thin sheet of PEI attached to 4mm float glass, which gives me a nice flat surface.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:21PM
Quote
epicepee
As a US user who's tried BuildTak, I'd love a PEI-coated aluminum plate -- but why? It seems excessive.

Excessive?


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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 06:28PM
Quote
dc42
Quote
Skimmy
Quote
dc42
PEI seems to be quite well known and readily available in the USA, but is expensive and hard to find here in the UK. I ended up importing a sheet from amazon.com. See [miscsolutions.wordpress.com].

Yes, but that's only a step between. And the printbed will not be flat this way.

What way? I use a thin sheet of PEI attached to 4mm float glass, which gives me a nice flat surface.

That way you have 3 layers with undefined levels of flatness stacked above each other. I do not say it wont work, maybe its good enough for you, thats ok! We all are only working with hights of the tenth of a millimeter anyways. But a milled printbed is absolutely flat. Maybe thats somehow relevant.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2015 06:30PM by Skimmy.


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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 14, 2015 10:12PM
It is odd that it isn't readily available in the US. Is there a particular vendor you guys buy yours from in Germany?


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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 03:47AM
Quote
Skimmy
Quote
dc42
Quote
Skimmy
Quote
dc42
PEI seems to be quite well known and readily available in the USA, but is expensive and hard to find here in the UK. I ended up importing a sheet from amazon.com. See [miscsolutions.wordpress.com].

Yes, but that's only a step between. And the printbed will not be flat this way.

What way? I use a thin sheet of PEI attached to 4mm float glass, which gives me a nice flat surface.

That way you have 3 layers with undefined levels of flatness stacked above each other. I do not say it wont work, maybe its good enough for you, thats ok! We all are only working with hights of the tenth of a millimeter anyways. But a milled printbed is absolutely flat. Maybe thats somehow relevant.

A good piece of float glass is also absolutely flat, that's one of the reasons why I use it. Another is that I have yet to find a supplier of circular aluminium tooling plates.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 04:46AM
Quote
gmh39
It is odd that it isn't readily available in the US. Is there a particular vendor you guys buy yours from in Germany?

yeah, just google for "dauerdruckplatte+shop".

There is also a german user here, his name is Gonzoh, he does these coated beds in any size and shape you want.


Mein Bautagebuch CoreXY v2 - E3D-V6 / RAMPS / TMC2100 / Repetier
Mein Bilder-Bautagebuch Skimmy v3 - CoreXY / E3D-V6 / Cohesion3D-ReMix / TMC2100 / Smoothieware
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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 09:26AM
So what happens when the coating on your coated bed gets scratched or damaged? You replace the whole bed? Products like Buildtak and PrintBite have the advantage that if the surface is damaged, you can replace just the surface and not the entire bed.
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 09:29AM
I need to ask how it does get damaged in the firstplace? You don't need tools to get a print of, the print comes off alone, just by cooling down a little.

I saw a few forum-posts, mentioning really abused printbeds still doing fine.

For myself, I have one since beginning 2014, still working like new and I do rough stuff with it and have no regards when using it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2015 09:34AM by Skimmy.


Mein Bautagebuch CoreXY v2 - E3D-V6 / RAMPS / TMC2100 / Repetier
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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 10:18AM
I don't have to explain how the surface gets damaged. The question is what do you do if it becomes damaged?
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 05:47PM
I'd be happy if I could find PEI that was as easy to apply as BuildTak. That 468MP tape is a royal pain, it gets all bunched up on the sides. I ordered some 12x12 sheets of it to see if that's any easier to work with than the 1 inch strips.
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 05:53PM
I used a 305mm (12"x12") square sheet of 3M 8153LE adhesive, bought on eBay. It wasn't hard to apply.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 15, 2015 06:18PM
Quote
WZ9V
I'd be happy if I could find PEI that was as easy to apply as BuildTak. That 468MP tape is a royal pain, it gets all bunched up on the sides. I ordered some 12x12 sheets of it to see if that's any easier to work with than the 1 inch strips.

Have you ever tried the wet method of applying the tape? [www.youtube.com]

I did this with a sheet of 468MP and it worked great. I also use this method for applying my BuildTak.
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 01:46AM
Quote
WZ9V
I'd be happy if I could find PEI that was as easy to apply as BuildTak. That 468MP tape is a royal pain, it gets all bunched up on the sides. I ordered some 12x12 sheets of it to see if that's any easier to work with than the 1 inch strips.

I didn't have any problems applying 468MP tape. I started on one edge with the back side release tape on, with the opposite edge of the tape held up at 90°, then gradually applied using a credit card, lowering the edge I held in my other hand slowly as I went.
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 05:41AM
Assuming that PEI can be kept free from damage, how long before the surface looses its ability to grip the print? Is there a way of returning it to a good grip and clean release?

In ABS, and presumably in other plastics as well, the adhesion seems to be in a layer possibly only one molecule thick. Untreated float glass has excellent adhesion but it looses it after only a few prints. Any kind of cleaning seems to be only marginally effective although a few months of UV rich sunlight seems to work quite well. Kapton tape lasts a bit longer before becoming poisoned and, like glass, no solvent brings it back to the hot grip or clean release of a new film. Surfaces applied as a liquid such as ABS slurry or Wolfbite seem to be very unpredictable.

Mike
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 05:45AM
Quote
leadinglights
Assuming that PEI can be kept free from damage, how long before the surface looses its ability to grip the print? Is there a way of returning it to a good grip and clean release?

In ABS, and presumably in other plastics as well, the adhesion seems to be in a layer possibly only one molecule thick. Untreated float glass has excellent adhesion but it looses it after only a few prints. Any kind of cleaning seems to be only marginally effective although a few months of UV rich sunlight seems to work quite well. Kapton tape lasts a bit longer before becoming poisoned and, like glass, no solvent brings it back to the hot grip or clean release of a new film. Surfaces applied as a liquid such as ABS slurry or Wolfbite seem to be very unpredictable.

Mike

I have a 'more-than-one-year-old' PEI-coated alu printbed, and it works like new. Never ever recognized any loss of stickyness. And dear god, I am not gentle with it. Read the startpost grinning smiley

Ah, and it sticks so well, that you would break the mount of the heatbed, before getting it off while printing. After printing, wait a moment, till it cooled down a little, with ABS it is like 60°C, and then you hear a soft "crack" like ice is cracking in a softdrink, and the parts are free.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 05:50AM by Skimmy.


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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 11:52AM
I bought 2 of these PEI coated ALU beds on eBay. One is not flat so I haven't used it. The other one has indentations and blisters where I have printed ABS on it. The PEI doesn't seem stable at ABS temperatures (110/ 250). I prefer diffused glass as I get a better finish on my parts and it never degrades.


[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 12:01PM
Skimmy - after reading through, I think I must have missed something. Hopefully you can clarify this for me?

PEI has been around for some time - but your talking about PEI covered/coated Aluminium - Is this normal aluminium sheet or aluminium plate? And how thick?

When you say "coated" - do you mean the Ali plate is "dipped" in PEI so there is a thin even film of PEI on every surface or is it a piece of aluminium with a PEI sheet applied to the top surface with an adhesive sheet? I dont understand what is "special" about this if it is just a sheet of PEI applied to an ali plate.

As you mention, PEI is not good with Nylons, Peek or PC, there are other surfacces that work with all the common filaments aswell as Nylons PC and Peek that are tougher than PEI and ever lasting, and parts self release when cooled down with that same "crack" when it releases.

Do you have a direct link? I did a brief google search but I dont think i saw your plate in the results (it was only a brief search).
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 12:27PM
Quote
nophead
I bought 2 of these PEI coated ALU beds on eBay. One is not flat so I haven't used it. The other one has indentations and blisters where I have printed ABS on it. The PEI doesn't seem stable at ABS temperatures (110/ 250). I prefer diffused glass as I get a better finish on my parts and it never degrades.

So you got a faulty product and hopefully returned it for compensation? Your linked type of bed is very well able to print with 120°C, maybe even more.


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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 12:32PM
Quote
Mutley3D
Skimmy - after reading through, I think I must have missed something. Hopefully you can clarify this for me?

PEI has been around for some time - but your talking about PEI covered/coated Aluminium - Is this normal aluminium sheet or aluminium plate? And how thick?

When you say "coated" - do you mean the Ali plate is "dipped" in PEI so there is a thin even film of PEI on every surface or is it a piece of aluminium with a PEI sheet applied to the top surface with an adhesive sheet? I dont understand what is "special" about this if it is just a sheet of PEI applied to an ali plate.

As you mention, PEI is not good with Nylons, Peek or PC, there are other surfacces that work with all the common filaments aswell as Nylons PC and Peek that are tougher than PEI and ever lasting, and parts self release when cooled down with that same "crack" when it releases.

Do you have a direct link? I did a brief google search but I dont think i saw your plate in the results (it was only a brief search).

I figured out, that this is a german thing... Every other day I get this question from international users. The process is like:
- mill aluminium to your desired shape, material should be "warm-casted" (dunno if thats the correct term) and not rolled because of the inner stress of the material
- anodize it to get an openpore-surface
- dissolve PEI in dichlormethan (beware, that stuff is really really dangerous -> poisenous and more)
- wipe the solution over the surface so that the PEI got soaked into the pores.
- let it dry

But I simply bought it winking smiley google for "dauerdruckplatte", that's the german term.

There is also a german user here, his name is Gonzoh, he does these coated beds in any size and shape you want.


Mein Bautagebuch CoreXY v2 - E3D-V6 / RAMPS / TMC2100 / Repetier
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Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 01:25PM
>So you got a faulty product and hopefully returned it for compensation? Your linked type of bed is very well able to print with 120°C, maybe even more.

I didn't try to use the warped one until more than a year old so I didn't bother trying to get compensation. The one I do use is disappointing because every print leaves the surface uneven. Also the bottom of the objects is not flat because the filaments seem to sink into the PEI a little. An indentation the size of the object is left each time but it gradually fades as more objects are printed. Object with a lot of stress at the corners seem to cause the surface to wrinkle.


[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]
VDX
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 01:46PM
... sounds like a thick PEI sheet, not a thin coating confused smiley


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 01:51PM
No it is a thin coating but perhaps not thin enough?


[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 02:07PM
The coating I am talking about is so thin, that you can not see it.


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VDX
Re: PEI-coated-aluminium-printbed a.k.a. "the german Dauerdruckplatte"
December 16, 2015 05:29PM
... it seems, sometimes 'better' is less than 'good' winking smiley


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
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