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Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder

Posted by Vaeder 
Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 16, 2016 06:29PM
Hi,
Something I wanted to share and that possibly will make fdm printing compete with sls and even sla printing smiling smiley
To start of I invented a new type of cold end, it does not use a hobbed bolt but a belt. So there will never be any grinding of the filament anymore and way less jamming of the nozzle. I hope it will inspire a whole new type of extruders, called "v-struders" winking smiley
One of my first customers, a goldsmid, has let me know that he was able to print without any problems with a 0.1mm nozzle using moldlay wax filament. Im now searching for a place to buy a 0.1mm nozzle or even smaller so I can confirm this myself. Anyone knows a good webshop, preferably with fast shipping?
To this moment I was only able to test the v-struder with a 0.4mm E3D nozzle. In an extrusion only test, using petg 1.75mm at 235 degrees celcius I was able to extrude up to 2 meters per minute of raw filament without any slip in a bowden configuration with a bowden tube of 1 meter long. For higher speeds the filament would buckle inside the cold end in the gap between the belt and the ptfe tubing... probably because the hot end's thermic capicity to meld the filament was reached.

More info on the precise workings in this reprapworld newsletter: [reprapworld.com]

You can buy it here: [reprapworld.com]
Or print it yourself, will upload the stl's on github and thingiverse soon smiling smiley

Happy printing,

Vaeder
Attachments:
open | download - Capture1.JPG (61.4 KB)
open | download - Capture2.JPG (56 KB)
open | download - crosssection.PNG (109.1 KB)
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 16, 2016 06:39PM
This looks like a very cool idea. Keep up the good work! smiling smiley
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 16, 2016 06:49PM
That looks really interesting. I like the way you've wrapped the belt 90 degrees around the wheel.
VDX
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 16, 2016 07:13PM
Quote
Vaeder
...
Im now searching for a place to buy a 0.1mm nozzle or even smaller so I can confirm this myself. Anyone knows a good webshop, preferably with fast shipping?
...

... take your 0.4mm nozzle (or buy another one), hammer the tip from the sides, so it will close/compress, then drill it open again from behind with a 0.1mm drill winking smiley


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 16, 2016 07:59PM
could always just use a 0.3mm nozzle and tell your slicing program you have a 0.1 or 0.15mm nozzle, then set your extrusion with to 0.3mm




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Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 17, 2016 01:58AM
I love it! I've always had trouble with extruder force, and the only solution I've seen is an extruder with two hobbled bolts -- that sounds like a pain. If this works, I will absolutely build and/or buy one!
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 17, 2016 08:08AM
There is a double belt extruder as a replacement for ultimakers that works the same without the 90 bend.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 17, 2016 08:58AM
Sounds interesting - do you have a link?
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 17, 2016 10:28AM
Someone else on another forum already pointed that out to me. Here is the link: [0x7d.com]
The only thing with their setup is that they do not fully exploit the advantages of a belt and therefor they still had to add a hobbed bolt to the system to make it work. Actually now I look at the system more closely there is no way to tension the belts at all and the pulleys are positioned in a way that the belts cant do what they supposed to do, so you have in principle a system with 1 hobbed bolts and 4 smooth bolts in series...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2016 10:30AM by Vaeder.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 17, 2016 10:39AM
Wow, yes, that really does seem to miss the point doesn't it. What a lot of complexity to still need a filament grinding hobbed bolt.

The 90 degree bend is splendid for bowden, but does seem to present a challenge for a direct setup. I've been trying to figure out a system to compensate (2 x 90, 2 x 45?) but everything looks over complex and bulky. Such an interesting approach though, I'm sure this has great potential.

I saw a variant on thingiverse that swapped out the gears for a second 100 tooth belt. That looks like a nice adaptation, especially as most of the good deals on the belts come in packs of 5 or 10.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 17, 2016 11:14AM
In my collabortation with reprapworld we decided to go for gears instead of another belt to save costs. It's not ideal, but I spend a lot of time optimizing the gears to a point where they produce no noticable sound. Even on a printer with stepper drivers of 1/128 steps (which make a lot of difference in sound, never heard such a quiet printer) the printer makes more noise than the gears on the v-struder.
Offcourse something can be said about the satisfaction we engineers get from creating a system with minimal energy losses, which would be a v-struder with a second belt instead of the gears. Ill probably do that adjustment on my personal machine.

I'll also ask if reprapworld will create a hardware only package, so you dont have to spent a lot of time on the internet finding suppliers. (then you guys can buy it and I can eat something different than beans out of a can winking smiley)
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 18, 2016 11:04AM
Thats a very clever way of doing it, impressed. Keen to print one and try it. Id second VDX's idea, peen over an existing nozzle and drill or maybe you can get some blank undrilled nozzles from somewhere, then drill one. They are practically carburettor jets maybe this is one way to go?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2016 11:05AM by DjDemonD.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 18, 2016 12:06PM
Find the shop with a hole popper EDM and have them pop a hole in a blank. No burrs and it will actually be the size you want. Should only cost a few bucks.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 19, 2016 06:07PM
Can you comment on relative friction of this vs say a standard Gregs? Does this design seem to be easier on the stepper or harder to push filament through? Also would the 90 degree bend preclude 3 mm filaments or PLA that might be too brittle?

Bryan
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 20, 2016 12:22AM

what about something like this? not a final design, just enough to get the idea down, at first I was thinking tank track arrangement
i think i need to take an indepth look at the other variations to see how the gears are setup,
but perhaps there is a better way to do it, not figured out best way to incorporate the springs, or an adjuster
and if it could be made a little smaller. though its missing things like bearings which
could make things bigger. Not sure I like the idea of bits of belt in the print though.
some nice rollers needed, but thats a back to the drawingboard exercise.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2016 12:36AM by MechaBits.


[mechabits.co.uk]
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 20, 2016 01:22AM
This is a cool design Vaeder, thank you for sharing. Lots of other good ideas here too. smiling smiley

Although it does not use a belt, the LibroStruder is designed in the same spirit as Vaeder's V-struder. The LibroStruder page on Thingiverse says it "uses plastic-on-plastic friction forces rather than toothed-gear biting forces to grip and advance a plastic filament. The Libro-Struder is less prone to jamming and slipping than the more common Wade or Bowden-type extruders. It can also be created with fewer specialized parts."


Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 20, 2016 11:15AM
@MechaBits: That design is very impressive! smiling smiley
It looks similar to this one... [0x7d.com] The thing with their setup is that they do not fully exploit the advantages of a belt and therefor they still had to add a hobbed bolt to the system to make it work. Actually now I look at the system more closely there is no way to tension the belts at all and the pulleys are positioned in a way that the belts cant do what they supposed to do, so you have in principle a system with 1 hobbed bolts and 4 smooth bolts in series... With your design you are doing almost the same thing by having the pulleys symmetric. While having the pulleys asymmetric the belts will do the grasping of the filament. Like this:
o
|| o
o ||
...o (ignore the dots)
instead of:
o o
|| ||
o o
Hope this helps!
@MattMoses: That looks way complicated, but im gonna check it out this weekend.
@bryanandaimee: The force exerted on the filament by the v-struder compared to a gregswade is like comparing apples and pears. They both do the same thing, but the v-struder is in a whole different ballpark.
Im at the moment testing a 3mm version, and it seems promising. So expect an update about the 3mm version in the upcoming weeks.

Happy printing,

Vaeder

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2016 11:23AM by Vaeder.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 20, 2016 03:07PM
As I said its a WIP, it currently has 2 belts each side simply because I couldn't be bothered doing one belt correctly laced round 4 posts/wheels/gt2's but it is designed to be more like your second set of dots(which has a better chance of not deforming the filament). No hobbed bolts, just the back of the belt. Drive one of the large cogs and it turns both belts the same, as I said there is no tension adjuster yet, but perhaps it could be made to grip just with the springs, but if not some bright spark can figure out how to add one.
But in my head the 2 belts are both forced in by the springs via the parallelogram mechanism, if 2 more gt2's where added they may need staggering correctly on the shafts so that they can get closer to each other trapping belt & filament in place, though I would rather some smoother wheels there, doesn't mean they also couldnt be driven by other cogs, but as I said I haven't even gone anywhere near that, not my area...but perhaps now's the time to start getting my head around it, and the pictures in the link are a good place to start.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 20, 2016 03:18PM
Ah, with a parallelogram arrangement I think that might be self tensioning - the force pushing the filament down also pushes the belts up, which the parallelogram translates into a closing force, squeezing the belts harder onto the filament. It's possible that might work really well. More back pressure on the filament would automatically cause more grip from the belts. You'd need a minimum amount of spring tension to get it started, and a lever to separate the two sides to remove filament.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2016 03:18PM by JamesK.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
January 20, 2016 03:58PM
My thoughts exactly, you cant see the bar that would need to hold the inner wheels apart, but these pincers want to come together, the spring was supposed to illustrate that, but it needs some work as to best place to attach, a bolt running through for adjustment.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 17, 2016 06:37AM
I build Delta's for years .
The Vaeder extruder is the best i ever used!!!
If you get your hands one, it will save you from a lot of trouble.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2016 06:42AM by braveheart.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 17, 2016 03:23PM
Two questions...

Would it work or has anyone tried it with 3mm filament?
I've no experience of Bowden extruders but would be interested in mounting it directly on my x-carriage over my J head hot ends. Again, anyone tried this?

Looks very interesting though especially as I'm having problems with my Wade Accessible Extruder leaver arm breaking at the pivot screw.


Using ABSPrusa Mendel Zaphod with Pronterface and slic3r 1.3.0. Printing well with 3mm PLA and ABS through 2 x J Head Mk IV b and Wade Geared Exruders. Controlled using RAMPS1.4 board running Marlin_v1.1.9
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 17, 2016 06:33PM
I doubt if 3mm pla would appreciate that 90 degree turn. The bend also makes the filament path for a x-carriage mounted version a little tricky compared to normal straight path extruders. It seems best suited to 1.75mm bowden setups to me, but I'd love to hear different smiling smiley
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 18, 2016 10:17AM
stop doubting for 1.75 filament Vaeder extruder is the best remote extruder for delta printers on the marked.
a non destructive filament pusher, saves time and frustration ,great value for you buck .
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 18, 2016 10:23AM
Quote
braveheart
stop doubting for 1.75 filament Vaeder extruder is the best remote extruder for delta printers on the marked.
a non destructive filament pusher, saves time and frustration ,great value for you buck .

Hmmmm... Account registered yesterday and the only two posts are in here praising this extruder? Anyone thinking sock puppet account?
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 18, 2016 12:57PM
think what you want i tested the device and i am happy printer builder for years, mr elmoc must be a unhappy man writing stupid remarks
Robertus Keers look on thingiverse Braveheart and see my designs i made available for the community more than hundred .
By the way Elmo is a muppet name lol.your in the wrong group mister here we help one and a other to get better at our hobby and not to assume foul play i think your reaction is low ad the ground.
Its a pity that you prejudge people.
greetz.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 18, 2016 01:18PM
Wow. What a reaction to an observation. And for the record, the name Elmo was around long before the Muppet character. Making an observation that a new account that has only posted to support a product is a valid observation. Now if you read my reply calmly, you will see I didn't call you a sock puppet, but your account has the appearance of one. This doesn't hurt the community at all, but serves to make others aware of a possible issue.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 18, 2016 01:32PM
Do not post provocative, outrageous, or pointless messages only to get a response from others, i.e. "trolling."
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 18, 2016 02:22PM
To be fair, I saw braveheart's first post and also assumed it to be link spam that forgot the link... read this amusing article to get some background to why someone might think that:

[www.shamusyoung.com]

(Now I read that back and it too looks like linkspam! you can't win smiling smiley )

Cheers,
Robin.
Re: Innovative new type of extruder: the Vaeder V-struder
February 18, 2016 04:19PM
so if that is the case crybabies why dint i put a link were you can buy them?
i tested that extruder and it was fantastic, its sold now on the last full metal delta i made.
and for sure i will put one on the next one.
for you fellows life is like a contest, prejudging is childlike behaviour so create things and machines yourself if you can !
I just give you my honest opinion about the vaeder extruder its a true innovation i worked with it . did you?
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