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Electronic Suggestion?

Posted by sarf2k4 
Electronic Suggestion?
April 19, 2016 04:13AM
Hi, I'm considering to go for 24v system electronics and I need some suggestion especially the mainboards and I got some few questions as well regarding using 24v systems

  1. Is 24v 15a 360w sufficient?
  2. Megatronics or Rambo, why? (I'm considering to go for Rambo)
  3. Can 12v hotend and heated bed setup connected to 24v driven mainboard?
  4. I'm also considering to go for 30x30cm bed size, is the above power supply and the board sufficient?

Please give me your suggestion regarding this, although I might strongly go for Rambo board, it is kinda hard to source for Rambo board though. One particular reason probably because Rambo looks like have a sturdier design especially in the 3 rail power input configurations.

Another thing that I might gonna put along with the board is:
  • 12v pwm fan for printing pla
  • hot end fans e3d based
  • servo for auto bed leveling
  • led light to see print outs
  • Reprap discount lcd display (mandatory)

I also forgot regarding hotends if you guys got other suggestion for hotends other than e3d v6, e3d v6 don't perform well with pla without oiler

Thank you in advance
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 19, 2016 04:00PM
1. That depends on how much power the various components take, in particular the bed heater.

2. Neither. I recommend you choose a modern 32-bit controller board with load-time firmware configuration, software control of stepper motor currents, and a native USB port.

If you want a built in web interface and the option of a colour touch screen control panel (but not currently low res mono LCDs like the RepRapDiscount one), choose Duet. Other popular 32-bit controller boards include Smoothieboard and RADDS+Arduino Due.

3. No, you need 24V bed heater and hot end heater, and probably 24V fans as well depending on the controller.

4. For a 300mm square bed, you need at least 240W heating power, and preferably nearer 400W if you want to reach ABS heating temperature quickly. This is much more practical with 24V or mains power than it is with 12V power.

There are more modern options for Z probe than servos, including contactless ones such as differential IR or inductive.

Full disclosure: I manufacture the Panel Due and a contactless IR bed probe.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 19, 2016 05:52PM
The inductive sensors didn't work for me properly and capacitive sensors are not good. The contactless sensor boards from dc42 are working really good.
At least I hope that 270W are enough to reach ABS temperature in time. Luckily I mostly print PLA and I will try to exchange the need for ABS with an other material like PETG.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 20, 2016 03:47AM
@dc42, I saw in megatronics that there are few 5v and 12v pins and I'm pretty sure it is for some other uses that can only be powered at 12v like hot end fans and led lights. But I'm not sure about the Rambo board if Rambo do have the 12v and 5v power output pins

As for the 32bit based arduino. I still never touched them and I'm not sure what is the most suitable firmware for them that is almost like marlin (I grow fond of marlin already)
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 20, 2016 01:00PM
Quote
sarf2k4
As for the 32bit based arduino. I still never touched them and I'm not sure what is the most suitable firmware for them that is almost like marlin (I grow fond of marlin already)

For the arduino due shield .. we talking "Radds" you have 3 choice or firmware , Repetier,Marlin and RRP, I went with RRP the DC fork its great and easy to set up everything work with M command no reflashing firmware when you tweak the config or anything, you edit a .txt with a few basic M code then put it in your SD card and its done and you can also tweak those setting on the fly sending M command on your terminal of your host. It also have many perk for Delta
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 20, 2016 02:35PM
Quote
dc42

3. No, you need 24V bed heater and hot end heater, and probably 24V fans as well depending on the controller.


.
Smoothieboards allow separate power for different things so if that board is used this is not true. I ran a 24v stepper/hot end system with 12v fans for example. You could split the hot end from the steppers as well.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 20, 2016 02:46PM
Quote
Koko76
Quote
dc42

3. No, you need 24V bed heater and hot end heater, and probably 24V fans as well depending on the controller.


.
Smoothieboards allow separate power for different things so if that board is used this is not true. I ran a 24v stepper/hot end system with 12v fans for example. You could split the hot end from the steppers as well.

Same for the radds, you can have separate bed power and fan ran from mosfet so you can use 24V if you lower your speed 12V should work too
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 20, 2016 06:15PM
Quote
Koko76
Quote
dc42
3. No, you need 24V bed heater and hot end heater, and probably 24V fans as well depending on the controller.
Smoothieboards allow separate power for different things so if that board is used this is not true.

All boards allow this, it's a pure firmware thing. PWM is simply limited to less than 100% (typically to 70/255 = ~ 30%). I'd be suprised if Marlin doesn't support this.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 20, 2016 06:33PM
Quote
Traumflug
Quote
Koko76
Quote
dc42
3. No, you need 24V bed heater and hot end heater, and probably 24V fans as well depending on the controller.
Smoothieboards allow separate power for different things so if that board is used this is not true.

All boards allow this, it's a pure firmware thing. PWM is simply limited to less than 100% (typically to 70/255 = ~ 30%). I'd be suprised if Marlin doesn't support this.
I am specifically referring to the physical hardware present on the board to allow independent power supplies to be connected. I personally don't like relying on PWM for things like that.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 21, 2016 06:15AM
Quote
Koko76
I am specifically referring to the physical hardware present on the board to allow independent power supplies to be connected. I personally don't like relying on PWM for things like that.

Looking at [smoothieware.org] I see that Smoothiebard has only one power connector (and another one for 5V logic). The page explicitely talks about "reduced PWM settings" for connecting heaters when supplied with 24 V.

If you want independent inputs, get a Gen7. There you have distinct power connectors for steppers and heaters. No problem to run heaters at 12 V and steppers at 24 V at the same time.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 21, 2016 09:00AM
Quote
Traumflug
Quote
Koko76
I am specifically referring to the physical hardware present on the board to allow independent power supplies to be connected. I personally don't like relying on PWM for things like that.

Looking at [smoothieware.org] I see that Smoothiebard has only one power connector (and another one for 5V logic). The page explicitely talks about "reduced PWM settings" for connecting heaters when supplied with 24 V.

If you want independent inputs, get a Gen7. There you have distinct power connectors for steppers and heaters. No problem to run heaters at 12 V and steppers at 24 V at the same time.
Then I suggest you take another look at how the fets are configured. I can tell you from the piece of hardware that I bought that it has independent power inputs and I used it in that fashion until I switched to a duet 0.85. I don't want a "Gen7", and truth be told I'm not wild about the smoothie either. But give it a rest guy, you are going to great lengths to try and disprove what exactly? It isn't anything against the solution that you developed that a different board exists.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 21, 2016 09:34AM
Don't use 50% pwm to run 12 volt components on 24V, the average current will be correct, but not the max current that will be double.

Read the manual of the smoothie board if you what to connect different power supplies for different FEt's/functionalities, there are jumpers that need to be removed ( I expect that they are there by default )


P3steel DXL, with Due/RADDS/Raps128 dual Wade's extruder
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 22, 2016 03:35AM
LOL, what has RepRap come to. Salesmen for various boards plugging their own products and spreading FUD about competitors.

What a shame.


What is Open Source?
What is Open Source Hardware?
Open Source in a nutshell: the Four Freedoms
CC BY-NC is not an Open Source license
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 22, 2016 07:21AM
Quote
Koko76
Then I suggest you take another look at how the fets are configured.

Why should I investigate the layout of this board? If the makers of it don't understand it and write wrong documentation, how could I be better?

That said, it's your statement that documentation is wrong. Me only cites what's written there.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 22, 2016 10:45AM
Quote
Traumflug
Quote
Koko76
Then I suggest you take another look at how the fets are configured.

Why should I investigate the layout of this board? If the makers of it don't understand it and write wrong documentation, how could I be better?

That said, it's your statement that documentation is wrong. Me only cites what's written there.
Then your reading comprehension is poor. What I described is documented. There's even a picture. But there's words too, so it might be tough. ill see if I have some time later to find and copy paste the exact section for you since this seems so difficult.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 22, 2016 12:11PM
Taken directly from smoothieboard.org :

"Small mosfets

These are two small SMT mosfets : ZXMN4A06 ( 40V/5A )

They are usefull for small loads like hotends, fans, led lighting, relays, etc …

The power input is shared by the two mosfets. Meaning the power input ( 3.5mm pins at the top ) provides power to both of them.

And then each mosfet has its own two-pin output, with the choice between 2.54mm ( not recommended except for light load things like fans ) or 3.5mm ( Blue screw terminals, or green base and green screw terminals )

You can also take the power from VBB instead of from the power input, using jumpers, see the dedicated part in the non-border stuff section below.
"
"Big mosfets

These are two big mosfets : AOT240L capable of switching 12.5A at 24V.

They are usefull for big loads like hotends, heated beds, and crazy things.

The power input is shared by the two mosfets. Meaning the power input ( 5mm and SMT Jack power connector in the middle ) provides power to both of them.

And then each mosfet has its own two-pin output, with the choice between 2.54mm ( not recommended except for light load things like fans ), 3.5mm or 5mm.

We recommend using 5mm connectors ( Blue screw terminals, or green base and green screw terminals ) for all connectors.

You can also take the power from VBB instead of from the power input, using jumpers, see the dedicated part in the non-border stuff section below.
"


So that you aren't further confused, VBB is talking about the main power input to the board, you can use jumpers to take this power -OR- supply it through the connectors.

There are many boards out there, with many features. The choices available are great and don't take away from another board existing. Independent power inputs like these, as well as being able to easily assign an M code of my choosing to turn one of available FET on or off (or PWM) is a great feature of this one. It's the feature I miss most in the Duet, which is also a good board. I'm sure other boards are good as well. I'm not here complaining about the things in the smoothieboard I did not like, why are you so focused on kicking sand on it?
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 22, 2016 03:05PM
Quote
Koko76
why are you so focused on kicking sand on it?

I'm not trying to kick sand on it, I try to find the truth. Now we have one page saying that there's one power input and another page which says there are several of them. Guess what I think of this board :-)

What stops you from turning on arbitrary MOSFETs on other boards? Marlin has M42, Teacup has M106, both support an unlimited number of PWM outputs. Teacup even an unlimited number of controlled heaters. Well, limited by the number of available PWM pins on the MCU, of course.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 22, 2016 03:16PM
Quote
Koko76
... as well as being able to easily assign an M code of my choosing to turn one of available FET on or off (or PWM) is a great feature of this one. It's the feature I miss most in the Duet, which is also a good board.

The Duet 0.8.5 has two PWM-controlled fan outputs, so assuming you have only one print cooling fan, you can repurpose the other one for whatever you want, and use the M106 P1 command to control it.

It's entirely possible to use the mosfets on the Duet to drive loads with different power supply voltages, by connecting the positive side of the load to the appropriate power supply positive output. I appreciate that this isn't quite as simple as feeding the board from two separate power supplies. However, the vast majority of users only want to use a single power supply for the whole printer.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 24, 2016 02:38AM
I am quite confused as to go for either smoothieboard or duet though, I read a little bit of smoothieboard instruction that it needs another 5v for logic, and that would need another 5v power supply or voltage regulator for that one.

I also forgot to state that I'm going to build a cartesian style 3d printer
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 24, 2016 09:17AM
Quote
sarf2k4
I am quite confused as to go for either smoothieboard or duet though, I read a little bit of smoothieboard instruction that it needs another 5v for logic, and that would need another 5v power supply or voltage regulator for that one.

I also forgot to state that I'm going to build a cartesian style 3d printer

The Smoothieboard, like the Duet, has an option to supply 5v from a secondary supply. With the Smoothieboard, you need to add a 5V regulator to use a single supply. The Duet includes the components onboard for generating the 5V.

I have used both boards and personally, I prefer the Duet over the Smoothie.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 25, 2016 12:42PM
Quote
ElmoC
Quote
sarf2k4
I am quite confused as to go for either smoothieboard or duet though, I read a little bit of smoothieboard instruction that it needs another 5v for logic, and that would need another 5v power supply or voltage regulator for that one.

I also forgot to state that I'm going to build a cartesian style 3d printer

The Smoothieboard, like the Duet, has an option to supply 5v from a secondary supply. With the Smoothieboard, you need to add a 5V regulator to use a single supply. The Duet includes the components onboard for generating the 5V.

I have used both boards and personally, I prefer the Duet over the Smoothie.
So basically for smoothieboard it's a mandatory to have another 5v input? As for duet, just 12-24v would be sufficient as well right?

What of the duet firmware? will it support cartesian style?
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 25, 2016 01:03PM
Quote
sarf2k4

So basically for smoothieboard it's a mandatory to have another 5v input? As for duet, just 12-24v would be sufficient as well right?

What of the duet firmware? will it support cartesian style?

It is not mandatory for a separate 5v supply. By installing a 5v regulator, it only needs one supply. However, you have to supply and install the regulator.

I'm pretty sure the Duet firmware supports cartesian printers.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
April 28, 2016 11:45AM
That's what I meant, having another 5v input is a mandatory for smoothieboard means I would need either 5v psu or 5v power regulator to power the whole logic, if I didn't supply another 5v, it won't work is it?
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
May 25, 2016 08:25AM
Quote
sarf2k4
Quote
ElmoC
Quote
sarf2k4
I am quite confused as to go for either smoothieboard or duet though, I read a little bit of smoothieboard instruction that it needs another 5v for logic, and that would need another 5v power supply or voltage regulator for that one.

I also forgot to state that I'm going to build a cartesian style 3d printer

The Smoothieboard, like the Duet, has an option to supply 5v from a secondary supply. With the Smoothieboard, you need to add a 5V regulator to use a single supply. The Duet includes the components onboard for generating the 5V.

I have used both boards and personally, I prefer the Duet over the Smoothie.
So basically for smoothieboard it's a mandatory to have another 5v input? As for duet, just 12-24v would be sufficient as well right?

What of the duet firmware? will it support cartesian style?

Smoothieboard, like all boards, require 5V power.
There are three different ways to provide 5V to the board : 
* Plugging in the USB cable
* Plugging a 5V supply into the 5V input
* Plugging 12-24V into the VBB input ( which is used to turn the motors ) *and* soldering a voltage regulator to the board : [smoothieware.org]

Doing any of those 3 options will work.

If you have any question I'm around, you can also email me at wolf.arthur@gmail.com for help.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
May 25, 2016 08:28AM
The Duet board was designed for Cartesian printers and the Ormerod was equipped with this board. It also supports CoreXY and Delta printers as well.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
July 25, 2016 05:30AM
I was thinking of getting Geeetech's Rambo 1.2g controller board for one of the printer, unsure if it can accept 24v power input from it since they didn't state that only 12v input can be supplied.

Can it really go with 24v input? since 12v has its own issues of getting to 110'c quite longer, thinking of using 24v on this next printer
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
July 29, 2016 07:06AM
If you are spending a serious amount of money on a controller board, then IMO it makes no sense to go for an 8-bit board these days. The 32-bit boards don't cost much more but provide greater performance and additional features, such as native USB port, Ethernet port or WiFi, and configuration by a text file on the SD card instead of by editing and rebuilding the firmware. Plus more flash and RAM space for firmware expansion.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2016 07:06AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
July 29, 2016 03:29PM
The extra money spent on a 32 bit controller will save you many hours of screwing around, either immediately or in the future.

I recently upgraded the extruder and hot-end on a Solidoodle printer that has a printrboard controller. I had to flash the firmware to reset the maximum temperature limits so the machine could take full advantage of the new hot end. That's when the trouble started. First I had to get an obsolete version of the Arduino IDE - easy enough right now because Arduino keeps them on the web site - but then I had to go to the wayback machine to find an obsolete version of the teensy add-ons, and then hunt down the HID boot loader client, install all this stuff, then find a copy of Marlin with the Solidoodle specific changes and make my own changes after hunting through the config files for the appropriate variables. I finally flashed the firmware and all seemed OK until I tried a print. For some reason solid infill causes the extruder to skip every odd line and double print every even line. The whole time I was messing around with this crap I kept saying to myself, "gee, this would have been so much easier with a board that just stores all the variables in a text file..." After trying this three or four times in the last few weeks I've decided that I have wasted enough of my life trying to support this POS and will now just replace the controller board with one that won't waste any more of my time.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
July 29, 2016 04:17PM
Quote
the_digital_dentist
I recently upgraded the extruder and hot-end on a Solidoodle printer that has a printrboard controller. I had to flash the firmware to reset the maximum temperature limits so the machine could take full advantage of the new hot end. That's when the trouble started. First I had to get an obsolete version of the Arduino IDE - easy enough right now because Arduino keeps them on the web site - but then I had to go to the wayback machine to find an obsolete version of the teensy add-ons, and then hunt down the HID boot loader client, install all this stuff, then find a copy of Marlin with the Solidoodle specific changes and make my own changes after hunting through the config files for the appropriate variables.

Where's the 8-bit vs. 32-bit distinction here? You're not victim of a controller, but a victim of a printer manufacturer and/or controller manufacturer making a firmware fork, not merging his custom code upstream. A very common practice nowadays. This can happen with a 32-bit controller just as well. Worse, you have to have luck this printer manufacturer created his extensions for this 32-bit controller and merged it upstream there. A not exactly likely scenario. My guess is, with a new controller, no matter wether 8-bit or 32-bit, your printer won't work at all, because there's no customised firmware.

One way to escape this kind of bit-rot is to use Teacup firmware, which puts a lot of emphasis on not letting forks happen. Teacup also compiles with any compiler, not just Arduino IDE, removing one of the hurdles you had to deal with. And it works with 8-bit as well as 32-bit, so once you have either controller working for your printer, others will work, too.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Electronic Suggestion?
July 29, 2016 07:27PM
If I have to compile anything to make a change to the printer's configuration, sooner or later, it's going to be a problem. Compiler changes over time will eventually leave the firware behind. Keeping track of the source code so I don't have to recreate the entire configuration a year or two from now is also a PITA. Why would anyone choose to compile when they can simply edit a text file and reboot the controller?

It may be possible for an 8 bit controller to read a text file at boot up like the 32 bit boards do, but I haven't seen one that does that.

I use a Smoothieboard in my own printer, after having had Arduino/RAMPS. I would never consider going back to a board where I have to compile the firmware to make configuration changes. The SmoothieBoard will eventually get left behind as all products do, but the compiled firmware and configuration are stored on the uSD that's plugged into the board. As long as the board is functional, I won't have any trouble reconfiguring it, should I make changes to my printer or move the board to another machine.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2016 03:09AM by the_digital_dentist.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
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