First printer, which variant do I go for?

Hi guys, i'm in the market for my first 3D Printer and would like to go down the RepRap route rather than a pre-built one. I very much like the look of the Prusa setups and have been doing a fair bit of research however i can't come to a solid decision on which one and where to purchase from...

At the moment (I'm not set on either of these though) i've been looking into getting either a 'P3STEEL' or a 'Electron 3D - Sixth Generation Prusa i3 - Auto Leveling & Height Detection' or even looked at sourcing parts myself to create a personal Prusa. However, like i mentioned, i'm not set on these and i welcome any discussion or advice on any other variant, including something that isn't a Prusa i3.

I would like something with the build size of the Prusa i3 so anything 200mm or more along 1 axis, with a sturdy enough frame to allow good quality printing and a heated bed.

One last thing, hotends.... I've heard that all metal ones are superior compared to those that use PTFE material but are not for beginners apparently, why would this be?

If you really want to learn, I will recommend you to make your own from scratch, this way you can select the best parts and not been stock with what a manufacturer wants you to buy. Use aluminum extrusion for the frame and make it as sturdy as you can.

E3d v6 (original) is really well done and it will allow you to print with a variety of filaments, but like you mentioned it is important to properly set it up or you will have issues printing with PLA, the reason it's simple PLA likes to glue itself to metal and when it happens is a pain to clear. Said that, you can definitely print with it just be sure you cooled down with a fan and be careful with the retraction settings, if you planing on just print with PLA and ABS then the e3d v6 light is a more forgiving and easier hotend to start with and once you mastered you can convert it to a full metal one.

I'd suggest an alternative learning strategy. Buy a second hand printer which has fallen into disrepair and bring it back to life. This is what I did and whilst it was frustrating at times, I learned much more than I would buying a kit and building it.

Building your own printer from someone else's design would be a nice compromise and you would end up with a better machine than a kit (they always cut corners in some areas, sometimes there's barely a square corner at all).

Designing and building your own printer, unless you are an engineer (and even if you are), would be quite a challenge and you might end up in a dead end that could seriously spoil your enjoyment of 3d printing.

All metal hot ends are much more prone to jamming with PLA, which is what most people start off printing with due to it being relatively eco-friendly, readily available and needing lower temperatures to print well. However a good quality all metal hot end like a genuine e3dv6 will work well, as long as you keep retraction to the minimum needed to achieve control of strings and blobs.

Enjoy the experience - most of us do.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2016 09:00AM by DjDemonD.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

If you don't have access to someone who can print the parts you need to build your own, a kit or assembled printer might be better. There is a lot to learn about the printing process itself and not having to worry about the build itself can help simplify things. After you get experience with the printer, then go for building your own.

I don't believe in "starter" printers. Don't buy a cheap POS and plan to make "improvements". Most (all?) cheap printers are so poorly made with under spec'd parts that the only way to make real improvements is to completely rebuild them, using mostly new parts. If you're going to end up doing that, why waste the money on the cheap stuff in the first place?

A classic example is a bed that won't get up to ABS print temperature. After playing with crazy, underside-of-the-bed insulation schemes for a while (as thousands of others have done before you) you'll come to the conclusion that the bed heater is inadequate (as thousands of others have done before you). So you'll find a higher powered heater somewhere and put it into your printer (as thousands of other have done before you). Then you'll discover that the power supply can't handle the extra power ((as thousands of others have done before you), so you'll buy a bigger power supply (as thousands of others have done before you). Then, via smoke and fire, you'll discover that the PCB trace on the controller board and/or the MOSFET can't handle the current required by the new heater (as thousands of others have done before you). Then you'll get a new controller and add an outboard SSR (as thousands of others have done before you). In the end you will have fixed just one of the problems with the $300 printer by spending another $100 or so for all that stuff that should have been in the printer in the first place. Next, you'll attack the Z wobble problem by replacing the threaded rods with lead screws...

I designed and built my first printer from scratch using surplus industrial machine parts before I knew anything at all about 3D printers or machine design. I worked from the assumption that anything that allows the nozzle to move relative to the bed in an uncontrolled manner was going to reduce print quality. Minimizing such uncontrolled motion was always in my mind when selecting parts. One common source of such uncontrolled motion is flexing parts. Everything will flex, and it's hard to put an exact number on how much flex can be tolerated in any specific part, but if you keep one rule of thumb in mind, you'll do OK: thicker parts flex less than thinner parts. I also set a specific goal for the size of the prints (life size human skulls) and the materials I wanted to print (ABS). You can see that first printer and many of my mistakes here: [mark.rehorst.com] It worked well, but had some big flaws (difficult to enclose for printing ABS, for example) so I redesigned and rebuilt it to fix most of the things I didn't like. I was able to reuse many of the parts because I overbuilt the first machine. You can see the result by clicking the link in my sig, below.

Designing and building a 3D printer isn't rocket science. You start with a rigid frame, add three axes that move in X, Y, and Z, add an extruder and off-the-shelf controller, and you've got a printer. Of course, there are some fine points that you'll learn about along the way. You can either go cheap and build a POS to "learn" from (like reinventing the wheel), or you can try to do it right the first time by avoiding others' mistakes. Use the $300 printer kits as examples of what not to do. Don't think about the cheapest way to do something. Seek out the best way, then think about how you can do that as cheaply as possible. For example, you're going to need linear bearings of some sort in each axis. The best bearings you can get are called linear guides. Since they are used in a lot of industrial machinery (because they are so good), there is a big market for used linear guides where you can buy them much cheaper than new parts (search for linear guides on eBay and you'll see 15 pages or more of listings). Avoid using unstable materials like plywood, MDF, acrylic, and 3D printed parts. Overbuild rather than underbuild. If there's any doubt about a component's adequacy, use a bigger one. Buy scrapped industrial parts at local scrap yards or metals recyclers and via eBay for a small fraction of their new cost. Find and join your local makerspace for access to smart people, tools, materials and even parts that you can use to make your printer. Design the machine in CAD as you acquire parts for it. If you don't know how to use CAD, now is the time to learn because you're going to want to design your own stuff to print once your machine is working.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

Firstly i would like to take the time to thank all of you for giving your knowledge out to me and others reading this thread, i really appreciate that!

About 6 months back now i was toying with the idea of making a CNC machine and then i wanted to create a 3D printer and then i thought, why not do both into one machine. Just to let you know, that isn't happening in one machine any more! Back then i was looking at custom builds and how to go around this, so the information that the_digital_dentist has provided is nothing new to me, and i'm not that scared of making my own and making mistakes a long the way, i'm just worried about the timescale it could take to source all the parts. But i'm sure that won't be too long before i'm ready to print. I know a little about CAD design, enough to make some basic things anyway so there shouldn't be a big issue there. I've been looking at your machines and its very similar to what i had in my head when i was brainstorming making my own machine, so i like that someone else had the same images as me

All in all, i think i will go down the route of creating my own. I would like to be able to print ABS and more materials, but for now ABS will do me fine i think. I'd also like to have a build size of around the 200-300mm width and depth and maybe 200mm ish on height. So based on this, could you guys recommend any parts at all? I like the suggestions of the hotend above, things like stepper motors, belts (if any), heated bed, etc etc.

Once again, thank you for such in-depth information.

but if you get a cheap kit, and upgrade the parts then in theory you have two 2 printers happy days

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Check my rubbish blog for my prusa i3

up and running
[3dimetech.blogspot.co.uk]

This has proven to be very popular and has been scaled to the build area you want...

[www.openbuilds.com]

There is a very active group there more than willing to help out.

I recommend building a CoreXY or one of the other Cartesian configurations with the bed moving in the Z axis.
Use a 32 bit controller with LCD and SD card reader. I'm partial to SmoothieBoard, but I hear the Duet is also good and right now it seems to have more UI options. Get a 117VAC bed heater (or whatever your local line voltage is) that delivers at least 0.4 W/cm^2, an SSR, and run everything else on 24V.
If you're going to print ABS, you'll have to enclose the machine and keep the enclosure warm (45-50C) or prints will delaminate. Design for enclosure and put the electronics outside the warm enclosure.
Skip the 20 mm square stuff and go right to 1.5" or 40 mm square T-slot extrusions for the frame.
My cast aluminum tooling plate bed works perfectly on a 3 point leveling system (no need for auto tramming)- I've recently taken out the springs and thumbwheels and locked the bed down- that's how often it needs to be leveled.
Don't screw around with end-supported round guide rails- go for linear guides.
Don't use multiple motors to lift the Z axis- use one motor and a belt to turn as many lead screws as you decide to use.
Use 2mm pitch GT2 belts available with matching pulleys from Folger Tech and about 1000 other sources. I am partial to 9 mm wide belt because I like to overbuild. 9mm belt should stretch less than 6mm wide belt.
NEMA-17 motors should be adequate for a printer of your specified size- you can get those via Amazon, ebay, Folger Tech or any of 1000 other sources. Calculate required torque using the forms at this site: [www.orientalmotor.com] NEMA-17 motors are good up to about 100 oz-in torque. If you need more than that start looking at NEMA-23 motors.

I have had great reliability from my BullDog XL extruder and E3D v6 hot-end combo. I recently bought an E3D Titan extruder which looks promising, but I haven't had a chance to print with it yet.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2016 03:13PM by the_digital_dentist.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

Awesome advise! Thank you yet again. I will start my part list tomorrow and get sourcing ASAP!

Do you mind me coming back to you if i get stuck at any point? I too have a habit of over-building/over-specifying for the application at hand, but that is a good thing for the overall lifespan of the products.

Sounds like quality advice all around. Whilst I wouldn't disagree with any of it in general, I would add that the "over-specify everything" approach isn't always necessary to build a very good 3d printer. It is one approach, not the only approach. I second the idea that the $300 kit printer is not worth bothering with, but spend $600 on parts and consider what you're buying and you'll have a pretty good printer, probably nearly as good as if you spend $2000 but build the same machine twice as heavy. The law of diminishing returns applies once you pass a certain point.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

You can get a good solid printer for $400 from Printrbot. It has a 4x4x5 build area so probably a bit smaller than you were wanting. For $600 you can get the Simple which has a 5x5x5 build area. These are all metal printers and very sturdy. I have a Simple that I have upgraded to a 200x200x200 build area and heated bed.

If you are going to build your own from scratch, do you have someone locally that will print the parts for you?

These printer have the same problem like mine: One axis is only guided at one side so you will get vibrations and swinging. These printers aren't a good choice. I often hear that a bq hephostes 2 should be a good choice, but it isn't cheap.

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Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

If i go through with making and designing my own printer i do not plan on using 3D printed parts for the build. I do not see the point in going to the effort and cost of building it myself if there will be plastic parts that could cause flex, movement or any grade of unreliability either to consistentcy or to quality of print outcomes.

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samuel235
If i go through with making and designing my own printer i do not plan on using 3D printed parts for the build. I do not see the point in going to the effort and cost of building it myself if there will be plastic parts that could cause flex, movement or any grade of unreliability either to consistentcy or to quality of print outcomes.

Just because they are 3D printed parts does not mean they won't be strong. Several high end printers use 3D printed parts. I built a C-Bot printer (link above) that uses a lot of 3D printed part and it is very ridged and sturdy. Using 3D printed parts allow for flexibility in your design.

Agreed. Being able to initially use 3d printed parts to build a printer and perfect it is one of the things 3d printing is most useful for and one of the main things 3D printers are used for. You might later change these parts for metal ones but you can't machine a metal part as quickly or modify it as easily as you can with a 3d printed part.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Oh right okay, I just speculated that the torque from all the motors might push the 3D printed parts to their structral limits, it would seem i'm wrong though if you are using these prts in your printers. Thanks.

People were telling me to not chose a delta as first printer and to buy a kit, guess what, I did not listen to them and design and build my own with the spec and rigidity I needed, had only 2 problem the first week and its was not because of the design but common thing ( belts not tight enough and a bad thermistor) and since I fix that I have great print and when my friends ask me about it im proud to say that I design and build it and now they want one so I have to build more of them and make a nice profit. You dont need to be an engineer, a 3d printer is not that complicated, all you need is a CAD program to make sure your design is right and fit together.

here some tip if you design your own whatever a core xy or a delta :

1. Make all part aluminum if you can, its cheap and can be cut with tool you can find everywhere ( jig saw, table saw, mitre saw with the right blade)

2. Overbuild the frame ( you wont regret it) a more rigid frame wont cost twice the price , price between .125" and .25" aluminum is not that much, or bigger aluminum extrusion vs smaller one

3. Make sure your design have some adjustment, the more adjustment you have the better you can perfectly align thing without the need to have a perfects parts made. Parts made at home wont have 0.001 " tolerance keep that in your mind when you do your design.

4. They are lot of design floating around, spend a couple day to check them out and read about different option (example: linear rail vs V slot vs suported rail or magnectic join vs rc car joint vs ball in a socket with wire in case of delta). Finally dont go design right away get familiar with multiple design and parts you can use.

5. Dont lets anyone tell you you cant design/build your first printer and to buy a kit, if you think you have the skills and the tools to make it, just do it.

Good Luck

I originally bought a CTC Euroway, a POS I built as a kit which used a plywood frame. I got so frustrated with this machine. The first GT2560 clone board and LCD controller were DOA and one of the thermistors did not provide good readings. The dealer I bought the unit from sent me another GT2560 clone board and it burnt out within a month. Later the heat bed burnt out and the printed print head carriage on the X-axis cracked . The frame was so flimsy you can see it contort up and down, back and forth, left and right. This caused me to have bad z-wobble and other artifacts. I would later build a new machine using a P3Steel frame and Geeetech parts. The X-axis parts did not fit the P3Steel frame as is, so I had to modify the parts to get the X-axis to work. Now I have a solid machine which is a solid performer. I definitely suggest a metal frame and the P3Steel frame is one of the best if not the best. I would suggest a kit in that you will have all the working parts all in one box and hopefully nothing will be left out. Frustration can set in if you are in the middle of building your printer and you did not know that you needed to buy a particular part and now you have to wait a month to get the part from China; then start again only to find out you are missing another piece and so on. Just make sure you have a kit from a reliable source that uses decent parts. I looked at the Electron 3D website, but did not see a unit with auto leveling. The all metal unit might be all right but I am not familiar with it and can not give you suggestions. I would stay away from units with wooden or plastic frames. The term P3Steel usually refers to a frame and not a complete unit. Make sure the "P3Steel" unit contains all the necessary parts and is not just a frame. If you buy a kit, make sure it comes with good instructions. My original Euroway had horrible instructions and I had to use a Geeetech assembly manual to complete my unit.

To be honest with all this information you guys have given, i already knew this but thank you for cementing this information to me. So the P3STEEL is the only kid i have been very interested in. However, every kid i look at just looks to be made for quickness and cheapness to sell as many as possible. They also seem to not care once you buy one, it seems that they don't want to know your from the experience others are giving. This is the only thing making me want to build my own from scratch to be honest.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2016 08:38AM by samuel235.

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samuel235
To be honest with all this information you guys have given, i already knew this but thank you for cementing this information to me. So the P3STEEL is the only kid i have been very interested in. However, every kid i look at just looks to be made for quickness and cheapness to sell as many as possible. They also seem to not care once you buy one, it seems that they don't want to know your from the experience others are giving. This is the only thing making me want to build my own from scratch to be honest.

If you want a kit that produces a good quality printer and has good customer support behind them, look at the Printrbot Simple Metal. The kit is the same price as a fully assembled unit so you could go either way. I bought my when the kits where less expensive and for me, I feel I learned a lot more about how a printer works by assembling it myself. If I was going to buy another printer, I would get an assembled one instead.

$750 for a 150mm printer. I feel i could make something much better suited and capable with that price tag if i'm honest. But like you said, you're also paying for the support backing from them.

Quality is not always cheap. As you have seen, you get what you pay for. Buy a cheap kit, get a cheap printer. But building your own can easily become more expensive than buying a quality printer.

I haven't managed to generate a rough costing to make one myself but i can imagine its going to be £500+ tbh. But you then have the flexability and the upgrading luxury.

Have you had a look at this one. I got one a year ago last October, took my time and built it over a couple of days. Clear instruction manual and quality parts, no cheap chinese knock-offs. When I've needed it, I've had fast & good support from them.

That looks like a good printer with no corners cut. Trustworthy UK supplier too.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

It does indeed. I'm now tempted. The only thing is its not the steel version, just aluminium with some braces to stiffen the structure up.

Ooznest.co.uk are a good supplier and will provide you a good machine/kit

If you are looking for a UK supplier and are prepared to spend nearly £500, take a look at the Mini Kossel kit from T3P3 here [www.think3dprint3d.com]. The printing area is a little smaller than the Prusa from ooznest, but the electronics is much better (32-bit board, web interface, native USB port, software controlled motor current, no need to rebuild the firmware to make a configuration change, extruder pressure advance etc.). If/when you want a larger print area, you can use many of the same parts to build a larger one, as I did.

[Full disclosure: the T3P3 Mini Kossel uses my IR height sensor, so I have a small financial interest in it.]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2016 08:27AM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Deciding to use a P3Steel frame is a great decision. It is a SOLID frame.

Attached is a file containing a packing list of parts needed to build a typical Prusa I3 printer. It is from Geeetech, but I am by no means pushing this unit in that it has a plastic frame and I only recommend units with solid metal frames. With the exception of building the frame itself, building a unit on a P3Steel frame will be very similar to building this Geeetech printer. The building instructions for the Geeetech unit can be found on (http://www.geeetech.com/Documents/Building%20Instructions%20of%20Geeetech%20Prusa%20I3%20X.pdf). They are very good and should be very helpful to you. Realize what parts in the packing list are used to build the frame and strike them from the list of parts you buy.

I would suggest that you build your P3Steel Frame first. Use whatever instructions (if any) come with the frame. Sadly, most of the assembly instructions for the P3Steel frame are written in Spanish and if you do not know Spanish, you will be cutting and pasting into Google Translate quite a bit. There is a silent Youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=In_Q6NkX3fs) that can be quite helpful. It is all that I had and I was able to put mine together.

Since the P3Steel frame is a typical Prusa I3 frame, adding the remaining parts is pretty generic. Just use the Geeetech instructions.

You will also need to add a few plastic parts:
1) An adjustable Y-Axis endstop holder. I looked on Thingiverse for one, but I found nothing that worked with the P3Steel frame. I designed and made one myself. I can make the stl files available upon request.
2) A Z-Axis endstop holder that will work with the P3Steel frame and your X-Axis rod holder. Once again I designed and made one myself. My printer uses a modified metal Geeetech X-Axis set. I can make the stl files available upon request.
3) I also downloaded a spacer from Thingiverse that goes between the two metal pieces making up the Y-Axis motor mount. This makes the mount sturdier.
4) Since I used the Geeetech adjustable Y-Axis idler wheel/tensioner, I ended up designing a mount for this and had to drill some holes into the frame. This is optional since the P3Steel frame comes with an idler wheel mount, but it does not come with a tensioner. I can make the stl files available upon request.

I also suggest, for your Z-Axis lead screw, that you buy 8mm fine pitch threaded rod (https://www.nutty.com/M8-x-10-x-1-mtr-Thr-Rod-Plain-Steel_p_13649.html) and a fine pitch flange nut (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111654024899?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT). This makes the sensitivity of your printer slightly better, but more important prevents rounding errors which can lead to artifacts in your models.

As for your X-Axis Extruder/Hotend carriage, I highly advise on a metal one. A lot of force exerts on these things, especially if they carry a stepper motor, as they bounce around quite a bit . On my first printer, the plastic carriage cracked. The Geeetech version is quite versatile (http://www.ebay.com/itm/331722786612?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT). If you decide to upgrade to a dual MK8 extruder, you can buy the dual extruder holder for a couple buck from Geeetech on eBay. If you decide to use the X-Axis ends that come with the carriage, they will need to be modified to work with the P3Steel frame (the holes just do not line up with the P3Steel frame). The modifications require Z-Axis anti-wobble devices downloaded from Thingiverse. You will also need to buy the Spare Sheet Metal Part Driven wheel kits for Prusa I3 Pro B, Pro X 3D Printer (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spare-Sheet-Metal-Part-Driven-wheel-kits-Prusa-I3-Pro-B-Pro-X-3D-Printer-/331717824214?tfrom=331722786612&tpos=top&ttype=price&talgo=undefined). For now I suggest that you just use the plastic X-Axis ends recommended for the P3Steel frame.


Finally, buy spare parts!!!!!!!!!. I learned this the hard way while trying to use my POS Euroway (may it rest in peace). Things were constantly breaking on the Euroway and while repairing one thing I would loose some small part. Most items come from China and may take a month to receive. Also, having spare parts on hand makes troubleshooting easier. You can go online and ask on a forum (like this one) for help. Many times well intentioned people will give you wrong answers. It is hard to troubleshoot a printer without actually seeing close up and in all directions and hearing what the printer is doing......or not doing. You decide to try what people on the forums say, you buy the parts, wait a month, put the parts in and you still have a problem. You are back to square one. If you have spare parts neatly packed in divided containers, then if something goes wrong, you can replace the suspected part. If that does not work, try something else until your printer works. There is no waiting for new parts to come in. In the end, I have enough spare parts to build another printer.




I hope this helps,

Stuart
lymphomaniac1@gmail.com

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2016 05:33PM by Lymphomaniac1.