Nozzles sizes are getting finer...
Posted by DragonFire
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 12:48PM |
Holy Shit Balls Viktor,
Where do you work if you don't mind me asking?
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
Where do you work if you don't mind me asking?
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 01:14PM |
... actually at Gie-Tec (Germany) - [gie-tec.com]
But most of the "nano-work" was made in/for related projects and developments I was involved or driving in the last 25 years for other companies or groups
Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
But most of the "nano-work" was made in/for related projects and developments I was involved or driving in the last 25 years for other companies or groups
Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 01:40PM |
Sounds like you've had quite the adventure and learned a lot of pretty awesome stuff.
Things that might help you make a massive impact on the 3D Printer community especially when it comes to micron extrusion and how to effectively design Nozzles under .1mm.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
Things that might help you make a massive impact on the 3D Printer community especially when it comes to micron extrusion and how to effectively design Nozzles under .1mm.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 02:16PM |
Respect Viktor... Designing stuff isn't the issue, actually building stuff is the hard part!
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 04:16PM |
I am waiting on some 0.2mm nozzles to have a play printing some tiny things, but are we really thinking we can lay plastic down line by line at scales 10 times/100 times smaller than we do now? I'm not suggesting its possible by just changing a nozzle of course, but is FDM printing really possible at these scales? Would you need special filament to do this? It would have some potential if could be done but where's the advantage over resin printing where certainly 10 times smaller than FDM is currently available already?
The high energy physics approach sounds awesome though
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 04:17PM by DjDemonD.
Simon Khoury
Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
The high energy physics approach sounds awesome though
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 04:17PM by DjDemonD.
Simon Khoury
Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 05:22PM |
So I've got a question and not sure if it has been done or not.
Teflon or PTFE can be applied and baked at 0.001 layer thickness would that improve smaller diameter Nozzles or cause more problems.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
Teflon or PTFE can be applied and baked at 0.001 layer thickness would that improve smaller diameter Nozzles or cause more problems.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 05:26PM |
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 21, 2016 07:27PM |
What about a professional coating of Teflon like they put on pots and pans?
I was reading that to get the coat to stay on you have to bake it at 400c.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 07:29PM by Rlewisrlou666.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
I was reading that to get the coat to stay on you have to bake it at 400c.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 07:29PM by Rlewisrlou666.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 22, 2016 02:39AM |
I guess interior smoothness depends on grain size of the material to a certain extent... I think there might be other ways than resorting to teflon.
Another problem with applying layers is getting them even. If you are applying a coat to the interior bore, it would not be as straightforward as making it smooth in the first place...
Yah, the PLA is HARDER (more wear resistant) than the Teflon, I think. Like diamonds are most wear resistant, or does TIAu3 beat it now? Certainly that is a very hard material to machine.
... Which would be cheaper for best results I guess is what makes the crunch difference. Viktor is right, if you are going for optimum bore, then you might not be able to use brass at all, but a different material that can stand high pressures better.
There is a relationship between melting point and pressure too - if the plastic gets too much pressure and not enough heat, it's melting point rises and it solidifies in the taper. That's what causes blocked nozzles on translucent PLA, which is probably least viscous FDM material at present? Not sure about that. Certainly easiest melted.
Brainwave! The theoretical limit of printing materials with FDM is the molecular size of the material - but you have to deal with the pressure issue to get it to print at that nozzle width, and I think most reprap nozzles, assuming unlimited extruder power, you would blow the vent out of the end of a brass nozzle. Too much pressure, nozzle explodes, or at least cracks. The first European cast artillery was made out of bronze by bellmakers, and indeed, quite a few militaries insisted on bronze or brass for their artillery, until a Herr Krupp presented a steel cannon at an exhibition as a novelty. Several decades and European wars later, steel was king for taking pressure and making rifled artillery... but even a steel nozzle has limitations.
For a start, it's very hard, so not easy to machine after your cast/strike it. Stamping steel is very cheap at high volumes, but you need a very well produced set of dies, made out of very tough material, to stamp molten steel into perfectly smooth iteams at one punch. No drilling necessary, but LOTS of energy to move and press the steel into shape. Very expensive dies too. The quicker you quenched (cooled) it afterwards, the smaller the grain size would be - although you have to be careful with quenching, as you can cause explosions in the coolant if it expands too quickly.
Dangerous territory maybe. Hey, I'm there.
Resin printing has one major flaw - you can ONLY print resin with it. PLA or ABS with cut carb fibers beats the crap out of it for material strength. One quite recent innovation with a reprap is to feed uncut carb fiber down into the hot end with the plastic - claims parts printed as strong as aviation titanium. Can't do that with resin in a tank, you might be able to squirt it out of a nozzle with resin and cure it with a beam from a UV laser or focussed UV LED array. Like the Maasavit I guess.
[www.fabbaloo.com]
Not sure about sizes of cut carbon fiber and uncut carbon fiber width, depends on the supplier, but it makes a difference to what nozzle size you can have, if you want to print strongest material. I think cut carbon fibers in about 5 micron sizes are typical. Filaments with cut carbon fiber are available now - resin with carbon fiber reinforcement? Not yet. At least, not in a reprap version yet.
Edited 17 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2016 03:56AM by DragonFire.
Another problem with applying layers is getting them even. If you are applying a coat to the interior bore, it would not be as straightforward as making it smooth in the first place...
Quote
VDX
... inside the nozzle this won't help much - the filament will wipe/remove it pretty fast.
On the outside it can help to prevent sticking plastic to the nozzle -- but too, not stable enough to hold longer ...
Yah, the PLA is HARDER (more wear resistant) than the Teflon, I think. Like diamonds are most wear resistant, or does TIAu3 beat it now? Certainly that is a very hard material to machine.
... Which would be cheaper for best results I guess is what makes the crunch difference. Viktor is right, if you are going for optimum bore, then you might not be able to use brass at all, but a different material that can stand high pressures better.
There is a relationship between melting point and pressure too - if the plastic gets too much pressure and not enough heat, it's melting point rises and it solidifies in the taper. That's what causes blocked nozzles on translucent PLA, which is probably least viscous FDM material at present? Not sure about that. Certainly easiest melted.
Brainwave! The theoretical limit of printing materials with FDM is the molecular size of the material - but you have to deal with the pressure issue to get it to print at that nozzle width, and I think most reprap nozzles, assuming unlimited extruder power, you would blow the vent out of the end of a brass nozzle. Too much pressure, nozzle explodes, or at least cracks. The first European cast artillery was made out of bronze by bellmakers, and indeed, quite a few militaries insisted on bronze or brass for their artillery, until a Herr Krupp presented a steel cannon at an exhibition as a novelty. Several decades and European wars later, steel was king for taking pressure and making rifled artillery... but even a steel nozzle has limitations.
For a start, it's very hard, so not easy to machine after your cast/strike it. Stamping steel is very cheap at high volumes, but you need a very well produced set of dies, made out of very tough material, to stamp molten steel into perfectly smooth iteams at one punch. No drilling necessary, but LOTS of energy to move and press the steel into shape. Very expensive dies too. The quicker you quenched (cooled) it afterwards, the smaller the grain size would be - although you have to be careful with quenching, as you can cause explosions in the coolant if it expands too quickly.
Dangerous territory maybe. Hey, I'm there.
Quote
VDX
Resin printing is done in common printers (SLA, DLP and Objet-inkjetting) with accuracies down to 0.03mm in XY and Z (we did it with a cheap DIY-system down to 0.01mm in XYZ)... or down to 25 Nanometers(!!!) with the Nanoscribe "2-photon-recombination" curing methode.
Resin printing has one major flaw - you can ONLY print resin with it. PLA or ABS with cut carb fibers beats the crap out of it for material strength. One quite recent innovation with a reprap is to feed uncut carb fiber down into the hot end with the plastic - claims parts printed as strong as aviation titanium. Can't do that with resin in a tank, you might be able to squirt it out of a nozzle with resin and cure it with a beam from a UV laser or focussed UV LED array. Like the Maasavit I guess.
[www.fabbaloo.com]
Not sure about sizes of cut carbon fiber and uncut carbon fiber width, depends on the supplier, but it makes a difference to what nozzle size you can have, if you want to print strongest material. I think cut carbon fibers in about 5 micron sizes are typical. Filaments with cut carbon fiber are available now - resin with carbon fiber reinforcement? Not yet. At least, not in a reprap version yet.
Edited 17 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2016 03:56AM by DragonFire.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 23, 2016 07:16PM |
Yes, UV resin printers make very accurate moulds for other processes to handle.
Repraps make mechanically strong parts that are good to go.
I am trying to get repraps as accurate as resin printers, Viktor. Not as quick, but not as expensive in running costs.
Ball mark limit figure for theoretical extruder I'm working on is 1GPa... but I doubt the real one will have even half of that.
Especially if I make it pretty out of UV resin.
Repraps make mechanically strong parts that are good to go.
I am trying to get repraps as accurate as resin printers, Viktor. Not as quick, but not as expensive in running costs.
Ball mark limit figure for theoretical extruder I'm working on is 1GPa... but I doubt the real one will have even half of that.
Especially if I make it pretty out of UV resin.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 23, 2016 08:36PM |
Do you have any design files for the nozzles or any dimensions you're hoping to use for the actual nozzle?
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 24, 2016 01:06AM |
Have you looked into any forced pressure nozzle systems?
Think injection moulding but scaled down to 3D printer head size.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
Think injection moulding but scaled down to 3D printer head size.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 24, 2016 05:35AM |
... look at the "Drader Injectiweld" - [www.orbi-tech.de]
It's generating up to 1000 bar pressure, but won't fit into "RepRap-size"
Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
It's generating up to 1000 bar pressure, but won't fit into "RepRap-size"
Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 24, 2016 07:46AM |
I've just had an idea I'll mock up a model and post it later. Y
You can tell me if it would work or not or if it's already been done. Lol
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
You can tell me if it would work or not or if it's already been done. Lol
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 24, 2016 08:37AM |
Quote
VDX
... look at the "Drader Injectiweld" - [www.orbi-tech.de]
It's generating up to 1000 bar pressure, but won't fit into "RepRap-size"
Easy enough to explain, not easy to miniaturize. I think its turning the moving surfaces on a "tesla turbine" with a motor, then harvesting the pressure increase in material that flows through.
It's a bit like running a bladeless turbine power generator in reverse.
Snag is, it works on fluids, not solids. You would have to fit it into the hot end. Preferably into the nozzle.
Edit: Great steaming piles of moolah! Those things cost... can't tell if it's 4 Euro, 4,000 Euro, or 400,000 Euro from the web page.
[www.orbi-tech.de]
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2016 08:54AM by DragonFire.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 24, 2016 08:39AM |
Quote
Rlewisrlou666
I've just had an idea I'll mock up a model and post it later. Y
You can tell me if it would work or not or if it's already been done. Lol
Hah! Real proof is trying something and seeing how well it works.
Experimenting is not a binary experience.
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Re: Nozzles sizes are getting finer... October 24, 2016 11:18AM |
Oh it'll work it just depends on how safe it is when it's working.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
Out of the box thinking is easier when you never fitted in the box to begin with.
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