Remote Direct Drive effectors for E3D Chimera / Cyclops (Zesty Nimble et al)

Now that you have the Nimbles and everything is installed and working, I am really looking forward to see how the magnetic sensor is going to work.

The spring just rests against the filaments as they slide through?
Depending on the spring force that could generate quite some friction. But then again, you don't need much pressure of course.

Lykle

I can report that it works just fine. There is not much friction at all unless the spring is overly tight against the hobbed wheel. It needs very little force to turn it because it is just a short 3mm shaft, hob wheel and a 3D printed magnet wheel turning in 2 3mm bronze bushes.

I've used it with ABS and PLA and both work fine. I guess that a rubbery, flexible filament may be more of a challenge, though!

You do need to heat the ends of the spring red hot and then bend them over slightly to stop the spring ends digging into the filament.

I must redesign the mount slightly. Unfortunately I had it on debug so the filamnet monitor wasn't working and as I stepped out to get a coffee one of the bronze bushes fell out during a print (must print the hole smaller and add a lip). The Nimble just kept on pulling even though the hobbed wheel jammed the filament - ended up bending the mount!

I am fine tuning the parts and will put the design on Thingiverse when ready.

Richard

I remembered that I had a sample of eSun eLastic filament that I'd been waiting to try so I did. This stuff is more like an elastic band than filament! Despite this, the Nimble printed it just fine first time (once I flushed the ABS in the nozzle out with some PLA. Even better, the filament monitor worked perfectly despite it being a bit lopsided after the damage mentioned above!

All very promising!

Richard

@RGN01

eSun eLastic looks to have a Shore A Hardness of 85, I've tested the Nimble with X60 filament which has a Shore A Hardness of 60 (pretty sure it's the most flexible filament available at the moment).. and it was quite happy to print it



Note: Image isn't mine, it's from the X60 manufacturer.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2017 02:25AM by briangilbert.

Thanks, Brian, very interesting to see that - and to know that the Nimble can print it!

Richard

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2017 04:30PM by RGN01.

Too late for you, Richard, I know, but just wanted to let you know that because of the amount of Nimbles we are shipping we managed to get a better rate for the shipping.
So International shipping is now € 5 cheaper.

New products coming soon as well. I hope you have seen it in the general chat.

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Lykle
________________________________________________

Co-creator of the Zesty Nimble, worlds lightest Direct Drive extruder.
[zesty.tech]

Great news - I am helping a family member build a printer (well, we are just starting to think about it) and I won't have any hesitation recommending the Nimble. I may also build another printer so we may end up ordering 4 or 5!

Richard

.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2017 11:16AM by chris33.

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Check my rubbish blog for my prusa i3

up and running
[3dimetech.blogspot.co.uk]

I know that there are those who seem intent on rubbishing the Nimble using this thread and others (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) but perhaps the reason that users are not posting about it is that they are too busy printing using it and enjoying doing so!

To be clear, I am simply a customer with no links to either Lykle or Brian and my only interest in the Nimble is as a customer - nothing more, nothing less!

I installed my pair of Nimbles in a general printer upgrade that included adding a new self designed X carriage, thicker X and Z rods, bushes to replace linear bearings, greater Y travel, 'auto-levelling' and numerous other changes. I can safely say that any problems I had with the upgrade were related to things like a failed pull-up resistor on the Z-probe sensor, and some minor design issues on the self designed parts - and my own inability to properly read and apply the copious literature and guidance provided by Lykle and Brian. For example, I neglected to set the micro-stepping correctly and had issues with the firmware I use and the jerk settings on the extruders. Hardly the fault of Zesty-tech!

Anyway, despite that the Nimbles are printing better than my previous arrangements despite me still tuning them (extruder settings, jerk settings, retraction settings, Z-height etc.) to further improve the print quality. I completed a 10 hour ABS print yesterday to produce my updated X-carriage and, despite having the alignment of the Nimble on the mount wrong so that it caused unnecessary friction while printing, the micro-stepping completely wrong, and the jerk and retract settings badly adjusted, it completed the print perfectly. Sure, there were some blemishes but these were not the fault of the Nimble.

The Nimble surprised me in another way - as mentioned earlier in this thread I also added a filament monitor when I did the upgrade. Due to a design oversight one of the bushes fell out, jamming the mechanism. The Nimble kept pulling the filament, badly distorting the substantial mount for the filament monitor. I did not measure the force but I could not bend the thing by hand!

And, last but not least, the support from Zesty tech is second to none. I don't think that Brian and Lykle sleep. This is in stark contrast to my experience with a similar product from another vendor prior to purchasing my Nimbles.

Hopefully that is clear enough to dispel some of the negativity and disinformation that was, and perhaps is, being spoken about this product!

Richard

Thank you Richard. Much appreciated.

I hope your filament sensor is recovering well? Or did you need to make a complete new one?
We did measure the force of course, and have seen pulling forces of over 7 kg.
Personally I think that anything over 6 kg is overkill as the optimal pressure for a good hot end is around 4 kg.
Somebody did research with a load cell and I wish I could find it again.

Looking at where we are heading I think I will need to make myself a test rig.

Glad to see the Nimble is performing well, despite not being tuned yet. As I said in the docs, it is a slightly different beast to tune.

Ha, just now read about the 4 or 5! Don't tell everyone, but I think we can give you a little discount on that. ;-)

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Lykle
________________________________________________

Co-creator of the Zesty Nimble, worlds lightest Direct Drive extruder.
[zesty.tech]

Ok Rgn its not about rubbishing anything my point has been all along as they have not given any attribution to where they derived it from, next the development into that type of extruder has not been completed by them all they have done is reversed engineered the drive system, and lowered the gear ratio to make it smaller, only 12 months they was developing the nimble upto there kickstarter, and all the speel about inertia and so so.. was stolen from the flex3drive they have not developed the drive system only redesigned a shell and lowered the gear ratio just to make it their own
Does anyone know what opensource is ATTRIBUTION it is a derivative they should give it simple as


But still no pictures or videos only a cpl of users thoughts

(heres me rubbishing it)
support is second to none probably true, i have seen a gear what they use, doesn't look moulded to me so you will be needing all the support you can get from them



but hey lets all take other peoples support and use it to create a derivative and don't give attribution, oh they start piping up about license in next post or something and in my eyes thats irrelevant to my view point

ok so what if i bought a nimble then asked for all the support from them then release a my own version with a 20:1 gear ratio the gear be smaller so it be smaller, then i just go to my local newspaper say hey look what i invented, ill type in word for word what the support they gave me on my website about the mechanics of it and why we make it light blah blah then i won't even give attribution or even a mention where it came from. ( oh apart from the ancient thingiverse which never got DEVELOPED

Theres a diffrence between developing and improving a product which is the nimble case.

Do you thing the developer of the flex sat on his arse and said oh wait 40:1 ratio be good for a shaft driven extruder i think not. im sure he went through the ranges to find a optimum gear ratio but hey its easy to take a existing product change two things and call it your own,

how can something perform well when not tuned im going to try that, if its not tuned it cannot perform well, i know theres a design flaw in the nimble and i know the 1st thing you all going to have issues with but i'll let you all figure that one out yourselves

oh by the way im not a developer im a hobbyist but i know something if i wanted to develope something i wouldn't make a derivative of someone else product and call it my own

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Check my rubbish blog for my prusa i3

up and running
[3dimetech.blogspot.co.uk]

Quote
RGN01
I know that there are those who seem intent on rubbishing the Nimble using this thread and others (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) but perhaps the reason that users are not posting about it is that they are too busy printing using it and enjoying doing so!

Quote


And, last but not least, the support from Zesty tech is second to none. I don't think that Brian and Lykle sleep. This is in stark contrast to my experience with a similar product from another vendor prior to purchasing my Nimbles.

Hopefully that is clear enough to dispel some of the negativity and disinformation that was, and perhaps is, being spoken about this product!

Richard

I think the lack of customer input apart from yours, lykles and Brian's is exactly why many are off put. Reprap users like to comment on new products and I find it unusual that heavy discussions have not yet ensued... I have nearly invested in a nimble at all stages of its production (Kickstarter, pre-order etc) and have held back everytime till I see a more solid product. The initial controversies have also not helped...

Also, you have a go at others rubbishing the nimble and then go on to make thinly veiled references to another ... you are entitled to your opinion of course but I do believe this is slightly hypocritical. Just my 2 cents.

I have no affiliations, just voicing my opinion. I genuinely do hope the nimble succeeds as competition and consumer options are good for reprap and 3D printing as a whole.

Take a chill pill, Chris. :-)

I have personal experience of support from both - and have used the product from one (as a direct result of a lack of communication and support I never got to try the 'other' one).

Have you ever driven a car that needed a service? Well it's kinda like that - it will still get you from A to B, perhaps not quite as economically as it could but it still does the job. The service gets it back to full performance. That doesn't mean that the car was poor quality, does it?

As for history and attribution, I have seen both sides of this story, and have a few 'interesting' emails from the 'other' team and frankly I don't know who or what to believe so I'm keeping out of the politics. All I know is, customer service and support is very important to me and any vendor who neglects to communicate with their customers for months on end and despite frequent requests for information (all the while productless despite being a paid up member of an early bird programme) is unlikely to get my business.

Quite simply, the Nimble works for me as demonstrated by these prints I did this morning before work and after I sorted the microstepping issue (and the accommodating change is still set in EEPROM, not firmware, as I'm still tuning it). They are completely undoctored and only one of the figure 8 items has nearly correct jerk setting on X and Y - it was way out on the other items, as was the feed rate. All were printed in PLA at 120mm/s according to Repetier host, sliced with Cura engine - and yes, I do know that they weren't actually printed at 120mm/s, which is why I am explaining how I arrived at that figure! ;-)



Richard

OK, I will tell the attribution story one more time.
We are forbidden to use the other drives name, by contract.
So at Kickstarter we didn't and were called out on it.
We added attribution and Jason told us to remove it. We did.
End of story.

Quote
Origamib
I think the lack of customer input apart from yours, Lykles and Brian's is exactly why many are off put.

Agreed, but give us a chance? Most customers only have had the Nimble a few weeks. There are videos out there and we are getting nice stories back. Not everybody wants to publish, they are just happily printing away. But I do take your point. So here is a quick list of a few links..

[youtu.be]
[youtu.be]
[youtu.be]
[forums.reprap.org]

@Richard: Happy to be of service.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2017 01:58AM by Lykle.

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Lykle
________________________________________________

Co-creator of the Zesty Nimble, worlds lightest Direct Drive extruder.
[zesty.tech]

Attribution is about doing it kindly and respectfully, not to defame or gain commercial advantage. The clause refered to was included because you both proved to be untrustworthy and deceitful. Subsequent events demonstrate that pattern of behaviour.

You did not attribute. You used my name solely for your advantage. You (as individuals or a company) continue your behaviour of defamation in effort to achieve commercial advantage. I dont see you targeting E3D Titan, or Bondtech, or Flexion, or any others.

If you make false or misleading statments concerning Flex3Drive or any other products of mine, I have obligation to correct or defend. This is not acting against you.

This tweet is good example of your ongoing strategy with misleading untruths. No mention that you bought a Flex3Drive or received extended support that came with it? That would be an admission of the truth.

"Nimble Inside" - isnt that a ripoff from some other well known trademark?

I think this statement from your own rambling blog sums up yor perspective "Some see changing the colour as innovation, others will not accept development of new ideas as innovation but merely copying somebody else's ideas. But for Zesty it is simple. Anything where we personally go "Oh yes! Wow!" counts."

Pattern emerging?

Let it lie, tis your bed. Focus on your tensioner issues.

@Richard, I offered you apologies when the product in question was being developed, and refunded you, and I offer apologies again. Simply unfortunate. You were the only one to pull out. No need to grind the axe here. No hard feels. I am however surprised at the amount of tuning you need to do, for the results you have acheived. If you get stuck or run out of ideas, im happy to offer suggestion as I know what your issue will be but i sense my input may not be welcomed.

Peace, and simply enjoy having fun doing what you do with consideration to others.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2017 12:03PM by Mutley3D.

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Flex3Drive.com

US 6814157

Mutley, your link to that tweet inadvertently explained something to me - I now understand a lot more about the motive for the deleted post that started the most recent direction of this thread.

Anyway, I must clarify a few things:
1. yes, you apologised and refunded me. I accepted the apology but I cannot forget that your rudeness in not even responding to my repeated emailed requests for information led me to lose the trust of a friend, a customer and the opportunity to participate in an interesting project. Despite this I chose to avoid mentioning you or your product when explaining why I have not had the chance to compare the Nimble to anything else in this class.
2. Tuning. I cannot allow my words to be twisted. As stated, I have spent some time tuning my printer not just the Nimble. Again as stated, I have almost completely remodelled the printer and had some significant issues with the new auto-levelling feature. I also tuned the X and Y jerk (this is the tuning I was referring to this morning) and had some problems with the filament monitor and carriage I had designed. None of this had anything to do with the Nimble. The 'problems' with the Nimble were simply the result of me not reading the copious information provided properly (and therefore missing the recommended micro-stepping setting) and spending the time necessary to identify the correct setting to change for Jerk on the extruder in Repetier. Once I did that, it was very quick to get the extruder working correctly. Oh, almost forgot, I also had a misalignment issue when I installed the Nimble on my own design carriage and that led to excessive friction but, once again, you can't blame the Nimble for that - to go back to my car analogy, it would be like blaming the car if you put petrol into a diesel car!

It is my belief that the continued 'Nimble Bashing' and 'Zesty Bashing' discredits those who are doing it and is generally a bad thing and, frankly, it seems like a 'rent-a-crowd' situation in many respects to me.

Oh, and a final point, anyone with a 3D printer that is not constantly 'tuning' their printer is probably an imposter! :-)

Richard

Hi Richard, it was over 6 months ago on a beta project, it was unfortunate. I feel for letting you down and some day I may get to demonstrate that

Meanwhile Ill just leave this here



oops edit: Sorceress by Loubie3D 110mm version.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2017 10:41AM by Mutley3D.

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Flex3Drive.com

"""Oh, and a final point, anyone with a 3D printer that is not constantly 'tuning' their printer is probably an imposter! :-)"""

LOL build it once, tinker with the second . a well built cheap ass build can go months without a redialing every second day

Nice print mutley, I'll have whatever she was printed with. That blending looks awesome!

After all my mention earlier in the thread that the spring would work for the filament monitor, I was wrong! It had too much friction and was causing an oscillation of the filament monitor as the Nimble pulled it down until it overcame stiction and the monitor jumped back the 1mm or so it had been pulled down. Clearly this wasn't going to work long term so I've redesigned it and have managed to get two spring loaders into the same overall outside dimensions.

Some photos to illustrate.

This one shows the assembled filament monitor assembly (without the electronics)


Showing the cover removed. with the hobbed wheels, bushes and magnetic discs in the one half and the spring and rollers in the other. The rollers are made from 2x 2 x 5 x 2.5mm bearings each side, push fitted into a 6mm OD aluminium tube that has been turned in my lathe to true it up. It is mounted on forks on the ends of the spring (ABS printed) using short lengths of 2mm carbon fibre rod.


Showing the components in more detail.


Assembled on the printer.


Friction is now very low and it is very sensitive due to the high magnet count (24 magnets)

The whole assembly bolts to the top of the X-carriage I designed and can be removed and re-installed without disassembling the Nimbles, their drive cables or the electrical cables to the print head. The weird wedge shape is to avoid contact with the top of my printer frame and get the maximum printable height possible.

I'll update the design on Thingiverse when I get a bit of time.

Richard

Nice work Richard, great to see you persevere and get it right.

Lykle

Whats going on with this print, it looks really rough, what material & speeds? delta?

Now that I'm back from my holiday I can respond.

All these prints were ABS, printed with 100% infill as I was going for strength over looks. Nozzle temp 260­°C, 0.3mm layer height and speed of 140mm/S (as reported by CuraEngine in Repetier Host and I know that the actual print speed wasn't that high). I also found out later that the cheap ABS I used was slightly oversize (1.8mm instead of 1.75mm) so it was over-extruding.

Later prints are much better.

Richard

Welcome back Richard.

Thanks, thought it was probably a fast print, and probably delta, I thought the roughness might have been coming from some pendulum type effect(or some looseness in that kind of system) or extruder, but more from motion of head.

No, my explanation is that the roughness was due to there being too much material due to the 103% infill (100% set in the slicer plus the extra from the thicker filament) and the nozzle therefore ended up pushing though that extra causing those bumps.

On the upside, though, that part is nice and strong! :-)

Richard

How quickly we get spoilt!

I've been experimenting with printing flexible filament so designed a captive hinge. I tried to print it and my filament out monitor stopped the print as soon as it went to the second extruder. I cursed and moaned because the Nimble hasn't failed me yet so I wasn't expecting that. Went through the process to reload the filament and tried again. Twice.

And then I realised that I'd sent the second flexible drive cable to Lykle when it started delaminating! Now I don't think I can moan that it didn't print when it wasn't connected to the stepper!

The good news is that the replacement cables (yes, they are replacing both, and providing upgraded breech blocks with no questions asked to all customers - you can hardly fault that for customer service!) will be with me on Monday.

Richard

In case anyone was wondering the backstory on the cables: [zesty.tech]

And I was wrong - the cables arrived a few minutes ago, together with some really good looking breech blocks. Well done, Zesty-Tech guys!

Richard