Makerbot water soluble filiment

I just noticed this:
[blog.makerbot.com]

So now with dual extruder setups, it sounds like we could solve all of our support problems. I saw some pages in the wiki about using multiple extruders, but it seemed very experimental. Has anyone here actually done such a setup, with other materials obviously?

Will it stick to other plastics? Has it been used as a support material yet?

I don't know. Makerbot just started selling the stuff. They infer that it could be a support material, but considering their machines aren't multi-extruder capable, I'm not sure how they'd do it.

The bfb rapman and 3000 support multiple extruders.

brnrd, PVA is widely used as a film mold release... I've used it in a liquid form - sprayed it on to fiberglass molds, let it dry (into a super thin sheet film) and then laid up really big parts. If the part was stubborn to remove, water was used to dissolve the PVA and release was fairly easy.

If you were to dissolve it in your hands, it makes a pretty sticky situation.

Thanks for the info. But it's still not clear how well you can extrude it with other plastic like ABS and PVA. It's interesting that Makerbot didn't have anymore info on how well it works as support material. Perhaps it will be out soon.

It seems that PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) likes to suck up water which acts as a plasticiser so it's properties will depend on humidity. Probably more so than PLA or ABS.

this could make for some interesting gift boxes i think.

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[mike-mack.blogspot.com]

It's kind of expensive. What's the point of using a support material that's more expensive than your plastic?

... you can make hollow parts and overhangs not possible without a support ... and simply dissolve the support after ...

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

As cefiar once pointed out to me, water isn't good for the actual object which is going to absorb the water too.

I can't help but think the UP! ppl are on the right track. If you can solve the problem using software then why not.

next best bet for me is Adrian's oil dispenser, only because i'de be more comfortable trying a mechanical approach to software because i am no programmer or g-code specialist. Oil dispenser would mean playing with the G-code a bit but if i had the smarts to tackle the problem like the UP! printer i probably would.

but basically to me it feels like why add a whole other plastic JUST for support, if you can get away without it. Seems like a software solution would save a lot of physical effort/time for reprap builders and money.

I got a part printed on a dimension printer today and it used ABS for the part and support. I asked the girl if the support was orange and waxy and she said no it's the same.

mlagana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got a part printed on a dimension printer today
> and it used ABS for the part and support. I asked
> the girl if the support was orange and waxy and
> she said no it's the same.

Dimension printers do not use ABS for the support material - BST machines use a high impact polystyrene for support and SST machines use an alkaline soluble plastic from Belland Technology.

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[haveblue.org]

mlagana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As cefiar once pointed out to me, water isn't good
> for the actual object which is going to absorb the
> water too.
> ...
> but basically to me it feels like why add a whole
> other plastic JUST for support, if you can get
> away without it. Seems like a software solution
> would save a lot of physical effort/time for
> reprap builders and money.
...

Moisture absorption in ABS, once printed, doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I've had a lot of molded ABS stuff that just didn't care about water. Did it have some stabilizer added to it?

I do agree that software should solve as many support problems as possible. At some point, it seems that gravity will be insurmountable though. Happy to be wrong on that point. Printing multi-part machanisms does seem near impossible without support material to separate pieces that need to stay separate. I haven't seen a Rep[st]rap yet that could print brain gears in one print. I think support material will be a real advantage once its figured out. I don't see a disadvantage in adding the capability for those who want it. I want it, so I don't have to design around overhang limitations. But by all means, use software where possible to avoid wasting support.

VDX Wrote:
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> ... you can make hollow parts and overhangs not
> possible without a support ... and simply dissolve
> the support after ...


But you could just use your normal plastic for support.

Only if it is accessible to remove it. With soluble support you could print a gearbox with all the gears inside with just a small hole to let the solvent in.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

True but that's a rather limited use. I'd rather have cheap support.

ah k. thanks for that i wasn't sure if she really knew, actually found a bit of support left in one of the holes and it dosn't look like ABS, slightly blue.

Have Blue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mlagana Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I got a part printed on a dimension printer
> today
> > and it used ABS for the part and support. I
> asked
> > the girl if the support was orange and waxy and
> > she said no it's the same.
>
> Dimension printers do not use ABS for the support
> material - BST machines use a high impact
> polystyrene for support and SST machines use an
> alkaline soluble plastic from Belland Technology.

Tramagust Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VDX Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... you can make hollow parts and overhangs not
> > possible without a support ... and simply
> dissolve
> > the support after ...
>
>
> But you could just use your normal plastic for
> support.

... think about hollow objects with support structures embedded in the cavities and only small openings to crack and remove the support - here soluble support is much more user friendly

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

VDX Wrote:
> ... think about hollow objects with support
> structures embedded in the cavities and only small
> openings to crack and remove the support - here
> soluble support is much more user friendly

Precisely - I don't think you'd have a chance of removing non-dissolvable support material from, say, a printed ballnut/ballscrew assembly...

---

[haveblue.org]

I can imagine complex algorithms to determine when/where to use soluble support and when to just use regular plastic in a double-extruder machine. what would be particularly nice would be to just use soluble support for the interface of exterior support and model. That way you'd only be using a tiny bit of the expensive stuff. (shelf life would be a problem then, probably)

Buback Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can imagine complex algorithms to determine
> when/where to use soluble support and when to just
> use regular plastic in a double-extruder machine.
> what would be particularly nice would be to just
> use soluble support for the interface of exterior
> support and model. That way you'd only be using a
> tiny bit of the expensive stuff. (shelf life would
> be a problem then, probably)

Yes, that is precisely what I'd like to see! If you can make the majority of the support structure the same material as the model (with perhaps 2-3 layers of soluble material between them), I'd guess that dimensional stability should be improved (as you wouldn't have to worry as much about the shrinkage differences between the soluble and non-soluble materials).

---

[haveblue.org]

the support extruder could also be a bowden extruder. if it is just for laying down a small amount of material, I don't think the hysterisis problem will be a very big deal, especially if it allows you to print better overhangs. it would allow you to stick with a regular geared extruder for the main plastic, but keep the x carriage weight down.

ooze would be a problem, i suspect.

It's not just software - its the material too.

MakerGear material doesn't work as well unless you turn down Up!'s temperature. Even after that, the support structures don't separate quite as nicely (better, but not as well as the OEM material). Allegedly, the material from reprapsource works well at stock temperature - but for me, the landed cost is more expensive than the cost of OEM material (which is known to be turn key) - it's unlikely I'll be trying it any time soon.

The biggest difference I've noticed between MG and Up! plastic is ductility. By comparison, MG's plastic is much more brittle. Up!'s material is extremely ductile. Unfortunately, I'm ill equipped to measure things like tensile strength and %elongation at break.

At least, that's been my experience.

-----
All that said... The Up! does have limitations when it comes to support structures. You can run into situations where the thing just fails because you selected options that lay down too much support. There are certainly uses for support that can be dissolved - enclosed cavities, orifices, high aspect ratio holes, etc. etc.


mlagana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can't help but think the UP! ppl are on the
> right track. If you can solve the problem using
> software then why not.
>

ok i'm convinced. i can imagine it would enable us to print pretty decent bearings.

Have Blue Wrote:

> Dimension printers do not use ABS for the support
> material - BST machines use a high impact
> polystyrene for support and SST machines use an
> alkaline soluble plastic from Belland Technology.

Blue,

can I use SST's soluble filament on the MakerBot? I have an "expired" cartridge, which i would like to use instead of throw away...