Cloned titan extruder review/opinion...

Yep that'll do it.

Interestingly I had a set of those same calipers which used to read wrong, might be worth measuring something of a known size. Just to be sure. I only realised when I bought a set of fancy 300mm ones and they measured the same object differently.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

I've found them to be reasonably close, certainly good enough for this sort of work.

On this filament, you can try pushing it down the heatsink and it just gets stuck, cut off a metre, and the next bit goes down just fine. This is borne out by filament diameter measurements. The filament just has inconsistent diameter. You can print fine for half a print, and it will fail. Use the same file and it will fail randomly throughout the print.

It has taken me literally over a year to figure out this problem. Buying the Titan was an attempt to get more success with this filament. *sigh*

I've no experience with flexibles but that sounds like a PITA.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Just an update (and correction) turns out my steps/mm have had to change quite substantially moving over to this cloned extruder. I am now using 470 steps/mm with a 1.8 deg motor.
There is a bit of background to this, I think I had an early version of the titan which had the incorrectly made hobbed drive gear. My steps/mm were 333 before, which was a lot lower than the e3d recommendation of 420. However it was printing really well.

What I can't work out is that the genuine e3d drive gear has a diameter of 7.75mm the new one has diameter 7.35mm. This does not account for the huge discrepancy in steps/mm it should be just 5% change. The only thing I can't think of contributing to it, aside from the difference in overall diameter, is that the teeth are much sharper on the genuine titan drive gear, perhaps they were cutting into the filament a lot more than I could see. But thinking out loud that would suggest needing a lot more steps/mm on the genuine one as it would have a smaller effective diameter. Puzzled but not really bothered since both work.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2017 12:08PM by DjDemonD.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

DjDemonD, are you using the clone titan from triangle lab with genuine e3d v6 via direct drive? or Bowden? I read on the aliexpress feedback page that the clone e3d titan does not fit the genuine e3d v6 via direct drive.

Hi I am using it via bowden (flying extruder so quite short tube).

However I've been designing piezo hotend sensor modules which are groovemount adaptors and I have been testing them by fitting them into genuine titan and clone titan extruders and I cannot say I can see a big difference in the fit.

They are a very close copy, logically it would seem ridiculous if you couldn't insert a groovemount hotend into the extruder, that would render it quite useless for around half it intended users. I suspect a degree of spin here to discourage purchase of the clone.

I will try to remember when I get home to look very closely at the groovemount in the two extruders and tell you if I can see a difference. The only thing, and I mentioned it in the review, is that the filament guide tube in the clone would only line up with the bowden adaptor if it was pulled slightly out from the position it would sit normally within the genuine extruder, so at assembly ensure you can pass filament down the guide tube and into the hotend.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 03:51AM by DjDemonD.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

any one got the tech drawing and dimension of the V6 and V5, just checked the v4&5 they dont fit a clone titan. nor does a Jhead mkvb. but a $5 clone v6 does so it aint the end of the world



the top groove reported as 3.7 mm for v5/v6 yet the v5 here measuring closer to 4mm, the grove on the titan clone closer to 3.8mm and the v6 clone top grove come in as 3.60 why they fit!!
now my dodgy cheap calipers could be lying to me but you have to risk breaking titan to mount a genuine e3d if the groove is closer to 4mm rather than the 3.7 on the drawing.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 05:29AM by jinx.

I will definitely stick a genuine v6 and a cloned v6 into each extruder tonight and let you know. Even if there is 0.3mm in it that to me is well within sandpaper/dremel/warding file range to adjust. If you over adjust it you can always shim it, which you have to do with most groovemounts to get them stable anyway.

My piezo module is printed in PETG and the flange at the top is deliberately slightly too wide (in x/y dimension) so you have to (just about) force it in, as I want it to be universally a tight fit in all groovemounts where end users will install it, the PETG gives just enough to get a tight fit.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Okay so I tried a few things for you:

Clone V6 into clone titan - good fit.
Clone v6 into genuine titan - fits but slightly loose
Clone v5 into clone titan - doesn't fit, the flange seems too wide in x/y and too thick in z.
CLone v5 into genuine titan - same problem too tight.

I presume a genuine v6 fits into a genuine titan properly so I also presume that a genuine v6 will be tight in the cloned titan.
I do have a genuine v6 but its installed and in use. I do not have a clone genuine v5 to try.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 03:04PM by DjDemonD.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Wow... looks like i am going to have some issues to fit my geunine e3d v6 on the clone titan then.

Well depends on whether you expect everything to just snap together or recognise that some things need a bit of filing. Its like aftermarket car parts, they rarely fit perfectly, but they cost a lot less. You pays your money and takes your choice.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Can you confirm that the E3D clamp is just an adapter inside the Titan? Can't this be replaced by a printed one that fit's cloned- or V5- heatsinks?

No the part of the titan (or clone) into which the hotend fits is the injection moulded back case of the titan extruder. So if you want to fit a v5 clone (and possibly a genuine v5) into a titan you'll need to file down the height and width of the flange on the top of the hotend.

There is an adaptor which fits into the groove mount in the titan case which is the bowden adaptor for 1.75mm filament. You could print one of these but that isn't going to get your v5 hotend mounted. You could have a 2cm bowden tube which for all intents and purposes is still a direct extruder.

You could try printing the back case for a titan with a slightly more generous groove mount but I'd be surprised if it was strong enough, and taking a file to a $10 hotend is kit a problem.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

I got a cloned Titan and Volcano on the Tevo Little Monster Delta and it clogged up the third print. i had planned on replacing them anyway so I know have originals of both and here are my observations.

TItan
- Teeth on the hobbled gear not done as well
- Does not have the newer thumb wheel tension setting
- Bolts very light compared with the E3D ones
- Some variations in case design

Volcano
- uses older style thermistor mount
- machining not as well done

It's a workable system but overall it took more tinkering to get running and failed on me quickly. Whatever you do don't make it have to,push too much pressure, it will clog on you and grind up the filament.

In my opinion it's worth the extra to get the E3D parts.

I have clone volcano (big tree tech) and it's been rock solid had it for 8 months. I don't print much pla so that probably helps. Bought it to try volcano before buying genuine e3d which I intended to do when it started to fail but it just hasn't.

Haven't seen any issues so far with cloned titan but it's early days and the cost differential is less from the genuine to the clone compared to a clone vs genuine hotend. So the equation in favour of the clone is less tempting for the extruder especially if you are somewhere where shipping is reasonable.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2017 10:32AM by DjDemonD.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

@DjDemonD, where did u get your clone titan btw? Trianglelab?

I just got mine from them, the e3d v6 genuine fits a little snug but it's okay. the only complain I have is the black filament guide above the v6 is too short. It has a 2mm gap betwen the hobb and idler. I don't believe that is good for flexible filament.

Yes they're trianglelab ones. I will check the filament guide, see what the gap is. I agree it would be problematic for flexible if it were 2mm, (but I don't print any flexible so thanks for pointing this out).

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

May i know what steps/mm are u using for trianglelab ones? If I use 837 like on the titan assembly wiki. my extruder push less than what it is suppose to

I'm using 400 with 1.8deg motors on the trianglelab titan, I only use 330 on the genuine titan. Which is much less than the recommended but objects print well.

I think the pressure from the idler has to be just right or you get quite varying results.

I can see why some extruders are now made with fixed tension even if there is an argument for and against it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2017 03:39AM by DjDemonD.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Fixed idler tension would still lead to different results with different filament. Even ABS from different brands can vary.

I think my problem with fixed tension is that I spend alot of time fine tuning these things, do I trust someone else to have done that research for me? I think the fact that we all build these machines means no....

And then there are flexibles which spit in the face of anything you might have configured anyway!

Whilst I sometimes adjust the idler tension its not often. If there was some sort of genuine self adjusting tensioner then I'd be all for it. Its one less thing to have to adjust, that doesn't mean there are no more things to tinker with.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Quote
DjDemonD
Whilst I sometimes adjust the idler tension its not often. If there was some sort of genuine self adjusting tensioner then I'd be all for it. Its one less thing to have to adjust, that doesn't mean there are no more things to tinker with.

I'm not sure that's possible although the bondtech extruders probably come closer with the dual-hobbed gear design meaning more grip and thus less tension needed... Might mean that the idler tension works well over a wider window and not need adjusting as much.

To whom it may concern :-)

Apologise if I unearth an old post... seems the better thread to post a contribution on this.

Got the cloned Titan extruder about 1 month ago, and it works fine. The gear+hobbed is the latest one (hardened steel hobbed, gear seems plastic). E3D shouldn't hate me too much because I decided to go for an original E3D V6 Lite as hotend.
Unless when not properly screwed, it never clogged so far.

So far tested with both PLA and flexPLA and it works fine.

With PLA I use 2mm retraction 120 mm/s. Printed easily up to 100mm/s
With FlexPLA I use 1mm retraction at 40 mm/s. Printed easily up to 40mm/s but prefer to go slower

I use RAPS128 as a driver, Vref=1V. Motor specs are 0.8 so I should be borderline, however external motor temp with the provided heat-sink stays around 35/38 °C. Well.. I did the measurement just because it seemed hot, in fact it was at about 52 °C when I realised the RAPS was still at 1.6V Vref because of the old bowden extruder (on a wantai -811) so probably pushing twice the max current!

Take care as explained in the original instructions of screw length and maybe add spacers (I used small washers made by cutting a PTFE tubing I had around), otherwise the screws on the back of the pancake motor will unscrew

Hope it helps someone else, as this post helped me making my decision

---

Disclaimer: io ce la metto tutta a darti consigli sensati, sta a te non incendiare nulla :-)
CoreXY HyperCube. [www.thingiverse.com] | Cerchi test? Make: test set: [www.thingiverse.com]

Quote
pivan
To whom it may concern :-)

Apologise if I unearth an old post... seems the better thread to post a contribution on this.

Got the cloned Titan extruder about 1 month ago, and it works fine. The gear+hobbed is the latest one (hardened steel hobbed, gear seems plastic). E3D shouldn't hate me too much because I decided to go for an original E3D V6 Lite as hotend.
Unless when not properly screwed, it never clogged so far.
....

Hope it helps someone else, as this post helped me making my decision

Did you check if it was really hardened ?

I am disgusted by all the claims of these leeches from over there who keep copying open source without bringing anything just false claims, low cost thanks to slave labor and damage the reputation of the ones they steal the ideas from.
Whores are more honest !

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2018 08:40AM by MKSA.

---

"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)

The irony was I wrote this review originally, being fair I think to E3D and Trianglelab. Then Trianglelab made a (bad) copy of my product. You couldn't make it up.

Whilst copying an open source design and selling it is not inherently wrong, what is wrong is:
-using the originator's logo/name/brand/trust to sell your product.
-making a poor quality copy
-using the originator's documentation
-expecting customers to use the support offered by the originator for their own product.

But we still sell plenty of our product, as E3D do of theirs, mainly because the copies of extruders/hotends and our piezo sensors are not that much cheaper and you have to wait 4 weeks for them, and sometimes they are not up to the job.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

I bought 3 titan aero's from Trianglelabs (mated will real E3D blocks) and they do perform wonderful.
The biggest gripe I have with E3D atm is the pricing, it's too expensive.
For the same price of 1 real Titan Aero, I now have 3 clones...

This is the real crux of the problem. Making things in Europe/North America and including the costs incurred in design/testing/safety etc.. and then marketing it and selling it means you can make a high-quality product but not cheaply. If you then want to make it cheaply you get it made in China.

If Trianglelabs had approached us, and said they'd like to make our product, I am quite sure we would have considered helping them to get it right, in exchange for getting a large number of units at low cost for us to sell ourselves. But they didn't. I am not grumpy about the cloned product as it does not seem to be affecting our sales, which does not affect our development of new products, and we do not seem to be having to support their customers.

What we need is more collaboration, everyone wins.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2018 09:31AM by DjDemonD.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

You are right. There are however situations where even taking into account all quality and design costs you can hardly justify a vendor from reselling chinese components at 2x-10x the price.
This is not your case, probably nor the E3D case, but sometimes the price is just a bald price overcharge and not much more.
In the end, some manufacturing happens in far east only...so people started to source components at the .. source. Of course this is not a rant, I got your point and sorry for the OT.
I did my best to recognize e3d effort by buying everything I was able to afford original but I'd be happy to see a real cost breakdown for the titan aero, and maybe the companies they outsource to. That could help much the cause.
Thanks

---

Disclaimer: io ce la metto tutta a darti consigli sensati, sta a te non incendiare nulla :-)
CoreXY HyperCube. [www.thingiverse.com] | Cerchi test? Make: test set: [www.thingiverse.com]

Quote
whosrdaddy
I bought 3 titan aero's from Trianglelabs (mated will real E3D blocks) and they do perform wonderful.
The biggest gripe I have with E3D atm is the pricing, it's too expensive.
For the same price of 1 real Titan Aero, I now have 3 clones...

Could you test if their hobbed gear is really heat treated ? That is hardened and a hacksaw or a chinese file should not bite into it.

---

"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)