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E3D Aero, hot or not?

Posted by Origamib 
E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 24, 2017 09:48AM
So E3D has, in apple-esque show boating manner (although a bit geekier) released the Titan Aero!

Seems like a solid bit of kit actually, and adds some extra upgrades to the titan. What do people think of it?

The issues I can see....

-- no 'output' side to the fins, unlike the old heatsink where air exited cleanly from the opposite side of the fins. Will likely only be an issue for ABS, but who knows where the air will go now and it will be harder to duct away. Bigger fan will make it worse.
-- No window for idler tension. Small issue.
-- From what I can see, no bearing on the end of the motor shaft!! this is the biggest fault with the titan.. The more idler tension you use, the more you displace the motor shaft causing inaccuracies with extrusion.
-- Potentially heavier. They've not listed weight as a benefit but it uses a bigger fan and a bigger chunk of metal. I've asked E3D so we'll see what the response is.
-- More intricate build. Makes maintenance harder and more tedious. Perhaps not an issue since the titan has proved a reliable extruder and maintenance is rarely needed with proper use.

I won't list the positives, E3D has a big ol' blogpost and video on them and I'm sure most of you are already sold on the titan as a generally good bit of kit.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 11:48AM
An interesting development but in order for me to buy something like this, I would need holes in right place for mounting direct to a linear carriage and belt attachment points in the right place, which I have no idea where at the moment, so at the very least enough holes in various places for additional brackets. Just as this solution appear Bondtech bring out another, wonder if they will need to update theirs? They dont seem to have a flexi-cable version even though the description almost sounds like it should have.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2017 11:48AM by MechaBits.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 11:59AM
Quote
MechaBits
An interesting development but in order for me to buy something like this, I would need holes in right place for mounting direct to a linear carriage and belt attachment points in the right place, which I have no idea where at the moment, so at the very least enough holes in various places for additional brackets. Just as this solution appear Bondtech bring out another, wonder if they will need to update theirs? They dont seem to have a flexi-cable version even though the description almost sounds like it should have.

To me, the titan still wins out. It's injection moulded (and CNC'ed if you get the aero) and has 3:1 gearing. The 3:1 gearing alone is enough to win it for me as it means smaller motors and more power.

EDIT: my bad, it is 3:1 geared! Doesn't look it from the photos. Would certainly be interesting to see some comparisons between the two.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2017 12:04PM by Origamib.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 12:27PM
It does make you wonder, why its only 3D printed(only makes you want to print your own), obviously e3d have bigger pockets.
If it's well made (&useful/multi-purpose)for less(or just a tad more) than I could make it for I buy it. Not much use if you have to make some kludgey mount to get it where you want it. But also if mounting direct to a carriage would it like the heat?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2017 12:40PM by MechaBits.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 01:24PM
I've personally had no problems mounting the E3D Titan. I just use the mounting holes on the back of the stepper motor. You could also use a cheap metal nema bracket, but they are a bit heavy. you could use the Bondtech bracket even, since they have got it so light.

What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 05:00PM
Quote
Origamib
What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

There are so many different ways to mount a part cooling fan. Makes it hard to come up with something generic enough. Guess you could ask the same question; why don't they ship with a carriage?
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 08:43PM
Quote
Origamib

What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

Flex3Drive ships with hotend cooling and print cooling solution using 25mm fans as standard smiling smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2017 09:00PM by Mutley3D.


Flex3Drive.com
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 08:53PM
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ElmoC
Quote
Origamib
What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

There are so many different ways to mount a part cooling fan. Makes it hard to come up with something generic enough. Guess you could ask the same question; why don't they ship with a carriage?

You are right, but a part cooling fan should be much more generically viable for many people, whereas carriages are not. There is no reason why e3d shouldnt be able to supply a part cooling fan as part of their ecosystem on either the hotend or extruder.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 08:57PM
Quote
Origamib
Quote
ElmoC
Quote
Origamib
What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

There are so many different ways to mount a part cooling fan. Makes it hard to come up with something generic enough. Guess you could ask the same question; why don't they ship with a carriage?

You are right, but a part cooling fan should be much more generically viable for many people, whereas carriages are not. There is no reason why e3d shouldnt be able to supply a part cooling fan as part of their ecosystem on either the hotend or extruder.

How a part cooling fan is mounted will depend on the carriage. From what I see, part cooling fans are far from generic, just like carriages.

So, what would you suggest E3D ship with the hot ends for a part cooling fan setup?
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 25, 2017 09:05PM
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Mutley3D
Quote
Origamib

What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

Flex3Drive ships with hotend cooling and print cooling solution using 25mm fans as standard smiling smiley

I was just looking at your Flex3Drive and didn't see anything for a part cooling fan. Just the one for the hotend. Did I miss something?
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 26, 2017 07:49AM
Quote
ElmoC
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Origamib
Quote
ElmoC
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Origamib
What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

There are so many different ways to mount a part cooling fan. Makes it hard to come up with something generic enough. Guess you could ask the same question; why don't they ship with a carriage?

You are right, but a part cooling fan should be much more generically viable for many people, whereas carriages are not. There is no reason why e3d shouldnt be able to supply a part cooling fan as part of their ecosystem on either the hotend or extruder.

How a part cooling fan is mounted will depend on the carriage. From what I see, part cooling fans are far from generic, just like carriages.

So, what would you suggest E3D ship with the hot ends for a part cooling fan setup?

It should be an optional extra with a mounting point on either the fan shroud or on the titan. There are many places it could go and be suitable for the majority of printers. Check out djdemond compact fan mount for an idea that would be suitable for most printers.

In general the titan is poorly designed in regards to mounting it, or accesories. You need access to 3 sides of it (gear, idler tension and of course hotend), meaning mounting is annoying. Just sayin'.

Edit: There are even less mounting point options on the aero.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2017 07:53AM by Origamib.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 26, 2017 09:55AM
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Origamib
Quote
ElmoC
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Origamib
Quote
ElmoC
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Origamib
What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

There are so many different ways to mount a part cooling fan. Makes it hard to come up with something generic enough. Guess you could ask the same question; why don't they ship with a carriage?

You are right, but a part cooling fan should be much more generically viable for many people, whereas carriages are not. There is no reason why e3d shouldnt be able to supply a part cooling fan as part of their ecosystem on either the hotend or extruder.

How a part cooling fan is mounted will depend on the carriage. From what I see, part cooling fans are far from generic, just like carriages.

So, what would you suggest E3D ship with the hot ends for a part cooling fan setup?

It should be an optional extra with a mounting point on either the fan shroud or on the titan. There are many places it could go and be suitable for the majority of printers. Check out djdemond compact fan mount for an idea that would be suitable for most printers.

In general the titan is poorly designed in regards to mounting it, or accesories. You need access to 3 sides of it (gear, idler tension and of course hotend), meaning mounting is annoying. Just sayin'.

Edit: There are even less mounting point options on the aero.

In my experience, the titan's design is no different than any other extruder I have used. The mounting is very simple, it just screws onto the stepper motor. Adding mounting points for a part cooling fan is something for the carriage, not the extruder, in my view. Can you point to a commercially available extruder with the mounting you are talking about? Maybe if I can see a real life example of what you are talking about I might have a better under standing of what you are wanting.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 26, 2017 01:26PM
There are no commercially available extruders I know of with a part cooling fan. As you said, if you don't know the set up it becomes difficult but E3D has its own ecosystem laid out, if anyone could do it they could. Most fans on thingiverse are attached to either the hotend or the extrtuder. At the very least they should design in optional screw holes for mounting parts on. A lot of space inside the titan is unused. However, A minimal fan/shroud design should work for most printers and can be sold as an optional extra. The only examples of decent fan design I can think of comes with pre-made printers, such as ultimaker, stacker S4 etc....

The titan design is different to other extruders.... The bondtech for example has gears which are enclosed and do not extend out further then the motor, making it easier to place. I can't place my Titan on its side, it has to be mounted facing directly out from the carriage. I can't place two titans directly next to each other as I need to access one side for the idler, and again the other side has a large protruding gear. It's certainly not the best designed extrtuder out there in my opinion. I do still like it however, it does its job and to me the injection moulding is a big bonus. before this we were stuck with printed gears or nema-gearboxes of dubious quality.

I'm currently designing my own extruder to get around these various faults... Perhaps I'll give the bondtech a go first though, seems to be closer to what I want

EDIT: I have seen the mirrored titan, problem still exists to me.... Large gears get in the way of each other unless you slightly offset them, but then you can't access the gears so easily.....
EDIT EDIT: The mirrored version also ignores their current dual extrusion systems.... The cyclops/chimera seems a bit forgotten and unloved at the moment

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2017 01:34PM by Origamib.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 26, 2017 01:29PM
Quote
Origamib
Quote
ElmoC
Quote
Origamib
Quote
ElmoC
Quote
Origamib
Quote
ElmoC
Quote
Origamib
What annoys me is why nobody ships an extruder with a fan?! E3D have been making their hotends for years and have not once considered making a part cooling fan that integrates with hotend+extruder?

There are so many different ways to mount a part cooling fan. Makes it hard to come up with something generic enough. Guess you could ask the same question; why don't they ship with a carriage?

You are right, but a part cooling fan should be much more generically viable for many people, whereas carriages are not. There is no reason why e3d shouldnt be able to supply a part cooling fan as part of their ecosystem on either the hotend or extruder.

How a part cooling fan is mounted will depend on the carriage. From what I see, part cooling fans are far from generic, just like carriages.

So, what would you suggest E3D ship with the hot ends for a part cooling fan setup?

It should be an optional extra with a mounting point on either the fan shroud or on the titan. There are many places it could go and be suitable for the majority of printers. Check out djdemond compact fan mount for an idea that would be suitable for most printers.

In general the titan is poorly designed in regards to mounting it, or accesories. You need access to 3 sides of it (gear, idler tension and of course hotend), meaning mounting is annoying. Just sayin'.

Edit: There are even less mounting point options on the aero.

In my experience, the titan's design is no different than any other extruder I have used. The mounting is very simple, it just screws onto the stepper motor. Adding mounting points for a part cooling fan is something for the carriage, not the extruder, in my view. Can you point to a commercially available extruder with the mounting you are talking about? Maybe if I can see a real life example of what you are talking about I might have a better under standing of what you are wanting.

I can't place two titans directly next to each other as I need to access one side for the idler, and again the other side has a large protruding gear.

Guess you haven't seen their new mirrored version that is designed to put them side to side.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2017 01:33PM by ElmoC.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 26, 2017 02:37PM
The more holes the better, yes it might add to the cost if you have to go 5 axis, but you can never have enough holes, thought there would be some to let the cogs & motor get some cooling, saves weight too.
the 20x20mmx3.2ish mm holes for mounting to a carriage or additional adapter plate(though others are different) Some spare lugs wherever they will fit, option to direct some of the air from cooler to part, and perhaps make the rest of it CNC'd seems a shame to have any plastic in it...I know helps reduce weight(though probably acts as a bit of an insulator) but a bulldog would last a lifetime, as will the cheap n nasty CNC'd one I'm using...though for a £5er perhaps nasty is too harsh, best value.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2017 05:14PM by MechaBits.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 26, 2017 05:59PM
Quote
MechaBits
The more holes the better, yes it might add to the cost if you have to go 5 axis, but you can never have enough holes, thought there would be some to let the cogs & motor get some cooling, saves weight too.
the 20x20mmx3.2ish mm holes for mounting to a carriage or additional adapter plate(though others are different) Some spare lugs wherever they will fit, option to direct some of the air from cooler to part, and perhaps make the rest of it CNC'd seems a shame to have any plastic in it...I know helps reduce weight(though probably acts as a bit of an insulator) but a bulldog would last a lifetime, as will the cheap n nasty CNC'd one I'm using...though for a £5er perhaps nasty is too harsh, best value.

I think the bulldog is over engineered in my opinion and is again a design with faults. I don't see a problem with injection moulded parts. If well designed they can be extremely strong... I don't think I've ever smashed my TV remote despite constant abuse winking smiley

Seriously though, you couldn't have such a nice lightweight design without injection moulding, not to mention cost effective.

I'm seriously considering this new bondtech extruder though... It has some really nice design features. Not cheap though so perhaps I'll just order some of their gears and design my own.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 26, 2017 10:36PM
.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2017 11:13PM by nebbian.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 27, 2017 01:44AM
Ignoring the chance to plug my own product here, as that seems to piss some people off.

There are two things that struck me with the Aero.

1 In the announcement video they show their own product wobbling like crazy. The normal Titan and normal V6. I know it is exaggerated, but still. Funny.
2 I love the modular approach E3D use on everything. It simply makes sense.

About part cooling fans etc. So many installations out there, so many different options. If modular approach was possible, it would be an option but I simply think there are too many variables. If they add a part cooling fan you are then locked into that solution and cannot simply change. Although, this is the first product for E3D where it would make sense to think about part cooling as the variables have reduced by quite a bit. The position of the nozzle in relation to the extruder is now fixed, so it might be done.

The main reason I think there is nothing mounted as standard is that it gives the user choices. I for one, am not a fan of part cooling fans (pun intended), I prefer to use a air pump and a small hose. I like the look of it a lot more, it is quieter and for me it performs better. Have not done the deep testing yet as I am too busy getting ready to shove a pile of boxes out the door. But I don't think I will be going back to fans.

Overall, I like the integration and compactness of the Aero. Pity it is still so heavy.


Lykle
________________________________________________

Co-creator of the Zesty Nimble, worlds lightest Direct Drive extruder.
[zesty.tech]
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 27, 2017 09:00AM
I'm not annoyed you plug your own product, a lot of people do it on here and often it can be good advice at the same time. DC42 often drops some great advice, although it is often linked with his own Duetwifi. I have more of a problem when there are 3 posts in a row pushing the sale of a single product.

I'm yet to find out the weight of the aero. E3D have been slow to respond to my query, perhaps on purpose or perhaps they are busy shipping a new product? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.... From what I can see though, Weight reduction was not one of the design criteria of the Aero. Seems a shame to me when most of the cooling fins of the V6 are simply not needed. Most of the important cooling happens in the lowest fins.

Yeah... The video is a bit stupid.... They are taking a leaf out of all the glossy kickstarter campaigns that are so popular these days.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 27, 2017 09:16AM
Quote
Origamib
I'm yet to find out the weight of the aero.

Just by looking at what was changed/removed/replaced, my guess is the weight is the same, if not more. The new heat fins look to be using more aluminum than what is used by the part it is replacing, even with the replacement of the plastic cover. Will be interesting to see actual weight comparisons.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 28, 2017 08:57AM
I think it is mainly aimed at Cartesian printers, so weight is a little bit less of a factor. (I said a little bit!) So it was perhaps not a hot issue.

The biggest advantage I see is the reduction in height. That will generate more printable height is a lot of cases.
You almost gain the full height of the original V6 heat sink.

I like compact designs, love to manage to squeeze a lot of functionality into a tiny package, so this thing does appeal to me.
Probably will have to get one, just for competitive analysis.

@Origamib Yes, sorry about that. It was simply the excitement that:
1. We had an actual unit out in a customers hands and
2. He liked it. But it is early days yet.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
March 29, 2017 09:27PM
My scale says 174 grams. That is with a PT100 / Volcano block, and all of the contents of the box. Pretty much the worst case scenario.
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
April 08, 2017 03:14PM
A lightweight combo of Titan, Motor, Hotend and the two fans shouldn't exceed 300g:




Mein Bautagebuch CoreXY v2 - E3D-V6 / RAMPS / TMC2100 / Repetier
Mein Bilder-Bautagebuch Skimmy v3 - CoreXY / E3D-V6 / Cohesion3D-ReMix / TMC2100 / Smoothieware
Mein Vierter: DICE - micro CoreXY / E3D-V6 / Cohesion3D-Mini / TMC2100 / Smoothieware

well-engineered.net - Youtube - Thingiverse - Facebook

Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
April 09, 2017 07:55AM
But if anyone has this new aero on hand, what about the gap after the pulley? Did they fix it?




Mein Bautagebuch CoreXY v2 - E3D-V6 / RAMPS / TMC2100 / Repetier
Mein Bilder-Bautagebuch Skimmy v3 - CoreXY / E3D-V6 / Cohesion3D-ReMix / TMC2100 / Smoothieware
Mein Vierter: DICE - micro CoreXY / E3D-V6 / Cohesion3D-Mini / TMC2100 / Smoothieware

well-engineered.net - Youtube - Thingiverse - Facebook

Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
April 09, 2017 08:29AM
Whilst it looks cool and has "shiny gadget" written all over it, isn't it just a mk8 extruder but with a 3:1 gearbox rather than direct? I'm going to try one so e3d are going to get my money....


Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
Re: E3D Aero, hot or not?
April 21, 2017 08:46AM
Quote
DjDemonD
Whilst it looks cool and has "shiny gadget" written all over it, isn't it just a mk8 extruder but with a 3:1 gearbox rather than direct? I'm going to try one so e3d are going to get my money....

My initial feelings as well. Would love to see a real life comparison if anyone has both.

My biggest disappointment came soon after great excitement when aero was announced. It is 1.75 or 3.0 Only. Unlike the original Titan which caters for both filament size needs..
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