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confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer

Posted by antidote314 
confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 06:07AM
I'm about to update my 3d printers. I've already finished all of the structure & mechanics stuff, now it's the turn of electronics.

Currently i'm running two cartesian 3d printer (i3 style) from RAMPS 1.4 with many periferials (fan control, 128x64 LCD + SD Card, capacitive probe & some wizard stuff for leds). They are like my little children (both needs too many attention) & I think it is time for them to grow.

After buying large industrial shelf & checking them to fit in it, i've started Adding 2 RaspberryPi computers (1st has two Octoprint instances with 2 webcams & 2nd has Node-Red server for home automation and MongoDb for logging). But my printers are so loud! After researching a little, I've got 24 igus linear bearings & 10 TMC2100 drivers.

Point of no return, my new drivers produce buzzing noise & an unacceptable amount of heat. My TMC2100 are setted on spreadCycle config, no skipping yet, but they are not going to last long at this stage. After more research, it looks like voltage rise from 12v to 24v should prevent them from heating too mutch & eliminate buzzing. RAMPS can not support 24v power input, the DIY conversion can be made, but it is RISKY. I need some standalone alternative to my current RAMPS. There are maaaany boards on the market right now, but which is the chosen one? RUMBA packs almost all of the shiny features that I need & it is not that pricy, but MKS S-Base neither and it has 32bit processor that run Smoothieware firmware, which is nice...

Here is my comparison:
RUMBA
GOOD STUFF:
  • 6 pololu sockets (triple extruder or double z driver with double extruder) as well as pins & screw teminals connection.
  • 12/24v input, switchable voltage on main hight power outputs (extruders / fans / leds).
  • DIP switches are used instead of jumpers.
  • Additional inputs for termistors (I have heated chamber).
  • Additional 12v & 5v outputs.
  • Access to all of the microcontroller pins.
BAD STUFF:
  • It is to pricy if you buy it original. ($100+)
  • Some bad reviews on BIQU chinese clone pcb quality. ($40+)
  • It is not 32bits, so no Smoothieware here.
MKS S-Base
GOOD STUFF:
  • 12/24v input.
  • 32bits processor running Smoothieware firmware.
  • Thermocouple input.
  • ADC on board.
  • Ethernet & SD card on board.
  • All of the connectors are XH type, much cleaner than dupont one.
BAD STUFF:
  • I don't really know if the output voltage for bed/fans/leds is regulable (it should be 12v).
  • Community has complained about PCB quality. But from my point of view PCB has good desing.
  • I can't use TMC2100 as easy as on RUMBA, but it is possible.
The most important problem here is 24v input. It must be 24 v for steppers, but 12v for all of the other stuff.
You guys had any experience with 24v electronics? Thanks for reading my bad english & your help!
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 06:46AM
All pololu socket type stepper modules you just remove the VMOT and its GND pins and wire them to 24v and GND... (and connect all the GNDs on the supplies)

How about a re-arm with a ramps where by you have done the above modification?

Re-arm is also fine with 24v for a full 24v system. (ramps still needs 36v caps and better polyfuses)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2017 06:51AM by Dust.
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 06:48AM
Why not use a Duet WiFi or Duet Ethernet? They have built-in TMC2660 drivers - silent like the TMC2100s but with around double the current capacity (2.4A with only modest cooling, or 2A with no cooling fan). Plus you get a good web interface, so you don't need to add the RPi+Octoprint unless you need continuous webcam streams. And of course they are 32-bit and 24V-capable. The connectors are locking Molex KK, so unlike the Dupont ones they don't fall off. Heated chambers are supported, so are thermocouples and PT100 temperature sensors using small daughter boards.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 06:56AM
I really don't want make any sort of modifications to electronics.
But are you saying that only by wiring the 24v to the steppers it will do the trick?
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 06:57AM
I don't know much about Rumba, but the little plug-in driver modules are universally awful- the board is too small to dissipate much heat so current is limited to much less than the chips are spec'd to deliver.

The MKS people don't provide much if any support, and =mks]the folks who wrote smoothieware are reluctant to because MKS does not contribute to the project. You sound like someone who doesn't need much support anyway...

Unless I've missed an update, the MKS board comes with DRV8825 drivers soldered to the board. The DRV8825s were a bad choice for 3D printing because they skip steps when run slow. There's an easy fix, but it sounds like you're not going to use the on-board drivers anyway. In that case, smoothieware is very easy to configure and update- edit one text file and reboot the board. The current board has a limited network interface, but newer boards that have some improvements are imminent.

Duet Wifi has more bells and whistles than you can shake a stick at. DC42 will surely post here momentarily with all the details...


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 07:10AM
Quote
antidote314
I really don't want make any sort of modifications to electronics.
But are you saying that only by wiring the 24v to the steppers it will do the trick?

To get 24V drive to the stepper motor drivers, you need to power the Duet from 24V. If you want to use a 12V bed heater, you can connect the +ve terminal of the bed heater to your +12V supply instead of to the output terminal on the Duet. Similarly for hot end heaters - although hot end heater cartridges are cheap so you might as well just swap the cartridge for a 24V one. Likewise, 24V fans are cheap; but if you want to go on using 12V ones, just remove the V_FAN jumper from the 3-pin jumper block and feed 12V from your PSU into the centre pin, then all fans will get 12V.

But do you really need to use 24V? The usual reason for needing a 24V supply for the stepper drivers is that you are using 0.9deg/step motors on a delta printer. 24V power allows the motors to maintain torque at higher speeds, but won't make your stepper motor drivers run cooler. If you know your motor specifications and what speed you want to achieve, you can work out how much drive voltage you need as described at [duet3d.com]. It's unlikely that you will need 24V drive on a Cartesian printer using 1.8deg stepper motors, unless they are low current/high inductance motors.

HTH David

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2017 07:12AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 07:17AM
Quote
dc42
Quote
antidote314
I really don't want make any sort of modifications to electronics.
But are you saying that only by wiring the 24v to the steppers it will do the trick?

To get 24V drive to the stepper motor drivers, you need to power the Duet from 24V. If you want to use a 12V bed heater, you can connect the +ve terminal of the bed heater to your +12V supply instead of to the output terminal on the Duet. Similarly for hot end heaters - although hot end heater cartridges are cheap so you might as well just swap the cartridge for a 24V one. Likewise, 24V fans are cheap; but if you want to go on using 12V ones, just remove the V_FAN jumper from the 3-pin jumper block and feed 12V from your PSU into the centre pin, then all fans will get 12V.

But do you really need to use 24V? The usual reason for needing a 24V supply for the stepper drivers is that you are using 0.9deg/step motors on a delta printer. 24V power allows the motors to maintain torque at higher speeds, but won't make your stepper motor drivers run cooler. If you know your motor specifications and what speed you want to achieve, you can work out how much drive voltage you need as described at [duet3d.com]. It's unlikely that you will need 24V drive on a Cartesian printer using 1.8deg stepper motors, unless they are low current/high inductance motors.

HTH David

It seems like TMC2100 are making a little noise with voltage above 18v. That is my only reason.
I can upgrade heater cartrige & my heated bed is controlled by SSR, so yes, Duet seems like awesome choice. 1024 thanks mate! smileys with beer:
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 07:23AM
+1 for duet.... The fans are the noisiest things on my printer now.
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 07:31AM
Quote
antidote314
It seems like TMC2100 are making a little noise with voltage above 18v. That is my only reason.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood. The driver on-time will be lower with a 24V supply than with 12V, so if the TMC2100 is using constant off-time switching then that may shift the switching frequency from audible to ultrasonic.

The TMC2660 drivers use a different algorithm, also it can be tweaked in firmware. So you may find that you can go on using 12V if you use the Diet WiFi or Duet Ethernet. [btw the Duet 0.6 and 0.8.5 are older boards with different drivers, so those are not what you are looking for,]

Quote
antidote314
I can upgrade heater cartrige & my heated bed is controlled by SSR, so yes, Duet seems like awesome choice. 1024 thanks mate! smileys with beer:

Thank you! As mentioned in my signature, I have a financial interest in the Duet WiFi/Ethernet, so I can't claim to be independent. But I can honestly say that as 3D printer controllers, these boards can't currently be beaten except on price.

Here's a video I made that demonstrates how we try to protect users from some of their own mistakes.

[www.youtube.com]



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 07:48AM
Agreed. I have a duetwifi, a ramps/mega and a rearm. I just got another duet wifi board to replace the rearm with. Rearm works but whether it's just my relative lack of smoothieware skills or rearm/smoothie as a combination is a bit awkward, everything takes me twice as long as with duetwifi and RRF. So I'll replace the ramps/mega with the rearm/ramps mainly as a test bed and to see if I can learn smoothieware.

The stepper drivers on duet wifi/ethernet are really good. Quiet and capable of 2.4A.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2017 07:48AM by DjDemonD.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 08:04AM
Quote
dc42
Quote
antidote314
It seems like TMC2100 are making a little noise with voltage above 18v. That is my only reason.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood. The driver on-time will be lower with a 24V supply than with 12V, so if the TMC2100 is using constant off-time switching then that may shift the switching frequency from audible to ultrasonic.

The TMC2660 drivers use a different algorithm, also it can be tweaked in firmware. So you may find that you can go on using 12V if you use the Diet WiFi or Duet Ethernet. [btw the Duet 0.6 and 0.8.5 are older boards with different drivers, so those are not what you are looking for,]

Quote
antidote314
I can upgrade heater cartrige & my heated bed is controlled by SSR, so yes, Duet seems like awesome choice. 1024 thanks mate! smileys with beer:

Thank you! As mentioned in my signature, I have a financial interest in the Duet WiFi/Ethernet, so I can't claim to be independent. But I can honestly say that as 3D printer controllers, these boards can't currently be beaten except on price.

Here's a video I made that demonstrates how we try to protect users from some of their own mistakes.

[www.youtube.com]


Duet has maaany features, the price tag is justified
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 08:27AM
@dc42 some questions:

1) Can I use 12v fans & auto leveling with inductive sensor with Duet?
2) Can I use heated chamber with inverted or dual logic? [use fan if there is too much heat & use heater in the other case]
3) Exists any Web API fow duet control? If so, exists any documentation for it? (Octoprint/Node-Red integration)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2017 08:28AM by antidote314.
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 11:30AM
1. 12V fans: if you are using 24V power to the Duet and you want to use 12V fans, then you can feed +12V from a 12v power supply to the centre pin of the fan voltage selection jumper. That way, all the fans get 12v,. But 24V fans don't cost much.

Inductive sensor: yes, see [duet3d.com]. The most common inductive sensors can run from about 9 to 36V, so 24V is OK for them, or you can use your 12V supply again.

2. Yes. Configure the heater as normal, and configure one of the three 3 PWM fan outputs for thermostatic operation based on the temperature of the chamber temperature. A disadvantage is that when you want to change the temperature, you will need to send a new M106 command to change the fan temperature threshold as well as a M140 command to change the heater target temperature. I think most people who use chamber heaters use a small fan to circulate air slowly all the time the heater is operating.

3. Yes, and it's partly documented at [reprap.org].

If you need more information, the best place to ask is on the Duet3D forum, [www.duet3d.com].

HTH David



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 01:31PM
I'd like to pimp RADDS
[doku.radds.org]

True you need to add an Arduino Due
[www.arduino.cc]

Lots of features, can be run 12V or 24V, have 6 driver sockets and is 32 bit via the Due.
I've found the support and documentation more than I need.
Biggest boon, was I could add two more drivers with a daughter card, because I needed 8 (don't ask).

Disclaimer. I have no affiliation with RADDS or Due. they just are decent and were the best choice for me at the time.
VDX
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 19, 2017 02:44PM
... FYI -- there's a new "daughter-board" for the RADDS with 3 driver sockets and for a bluetooth or WLAN module - have got one for testing and gathered the "wrong" WLAN module ... the board was meant for a "NodeMCU V3" and my was a "V2" with smaller form-factor ... had to solder two adapters eye rolling smiley




Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: confused smiley Electronics for more silent printer
May 20, 2017 02:29AM
Another difference of the RADDS is, you can use your already bought TMC2100 drivers. OTOH the TMC2660 drivers on the Duet are much better.
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