Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?

Posted by Melty 
Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 11:26AM
Something I've been pondering:
What would you call an open-source 3D printer, made of printed parts, but which for whatever reason CANNOT PRINT ITSELF?
Would this still be called, or be able to be called, a "RepRap"? confused smiley

By definition from reprap.org:
Quote
reprap.org
"RepRap is humanity's first general-purpose self-replicating manufacturing machine."
and further:
Quote
reprap.org
"Since many parts of RepRap are made from plastic and RepRap prints those parts, RepRap self-replicates by making a kit of itself"
... seems to say "No".


Examples of such a non-conforming machine might include:
* A small printer which doesn't have a large enough build volume to print the larger parts which it itself requires.
* A printer which requires high-precision printed mechanical parts to function, but can't print parts of a high enough precision to be usable for itself.
* A printer which requires components printed with certain materials which due to limitations are not printable on itself. (eg: flexibles or high-temp)
* A printer which requires composite parts not printable on itself. (eg: Parts which require dual extruders of dissimilar plastics, when machine only supports a single extruder.)



Perhaps complicating this question, how does the situation change if one of these non-conforming machines COULD print the parts for a DIFFERENT RepRap, which could then be used print this machine?
We have a printer which can't self-replicate, but CAN replicate via a 2nd generation... via a different machine?
Machine A can't print Machine A... but Machine A can print Machine B, and Machine B can print Machine A.

So for example, let's say we have the small printer, which has a build plate too small to print its own parts. (Let's say this small printer has a 3D printed frame structure made from large-ish one-piece side panels, and those comparatively large pieces are the limiting factor.) This printer can't print itself, but it COULD print the parts for something more modular, such as a Mendel. The Mendel in turn has a large enough print area to print the side panels for this small printer. So the machine "can" replicate, it just requires an intermediate self-made machine of a different type/design to do so.


Would this still be considered a "RepRap"? Does the RepRap community have a term for such machines?
It's fundamentally different from a RepStrap. It's not a bootstrap machine, or something as a means to some other end. It may very well be a wonderful, functional, high-precision, completely adequate final printer, and may be fully 3D printed and open-source, meeting all other RepRap goals. It just can't self-replicate.

If no term exists, I'd propose the term "StepRap" smiling smiley A printer which is an evolutionary side-step, requires a different printer as a stepping stone to print itself, or has a parent/child relationship analogous to the relationship of a step-child to its parents.
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 11:58AM
LOL.

I guess my POS I3 kit wasn't a RepRap then, since it couldn't produce parts nearly good enough to build another of itself. It couldn't produce parts good enough to build a different design either. Well, I might have been able to make parts for an extrusion based printer, if I didn't need anything better than small plates.

My Amazon kit doesn't use many printed parts at all. Lots of aluminum and laser cur plywood, but it was good enough to bootstrap a rebuild of my I3, which might be able to do the job, now.


MBot3D Printer
MakerBot clone Kit from Amazon
Added heated bed.

Leadscrew self-built printer (in progress)
Duet Wifi, Precision Piezo parts
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 12:40PM
Your analysis is woefully incomplete. What about the rep-second-cousin-twice-removed?


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 03:13PM
Seeing as 99% of repraps can't print ALL their own parts, I think the term reprap is quite misleading anyway....

To be honest I think most people have come to accept that reprap is an evolving term, and these days any hobbyist or small scale led initiative that is open source falls under the term reprap.
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 04:01PM
What is the question again ?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2018 04:04PM by MKSA.


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 06:06PM
Beware of false repraps.
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 08:09PM
reprap is the aim, just because we are there yet... also people are currently hung up on plastic printers.. which is only part of the reprap solution.
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 27, 2018 11:36PM
I'm not. I minimize use of printed plastic parts in my printers, and when I do use printed plastic, I try to replace it with metal as soon as possible.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 28, 2018 12:40AM
I think dust meant printers that PRINT plastic, not printers that use plastic parts. I.e. a cnc router or mill that can route/mill it's own components. Personally I think a router/mill that produces its own parts is more realistic and practical than an FDM printer made up entirely of FDM parts.

That being said, I believe the page on the wiki makes allowances for the use of bolts and fasteners. I can't remember what else it allowed except for stepper motors.
VDX
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 28, 2018 02:09AM
FDM is not limited to plastic only! - it's more the available energy, what's limiting it on actual DIY level.

I'm propagating "laser-assisted additive fabbing" (or LAAF winking smiley ) since some +10 years now ... and developing applications with and around high-power laserdiode modules and refurbished fiber-lasers as hobby and in my day-work for R&D-projects ...


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 28, 2018 02:30AM
Fast forward a few billion years in the RepRap new world:

-Did we evolve randomly from an initial PLA filament from outer space, or a plastic "soup" in the warm ocean ?
- Are we the result of a Great Creator or let's say an intelligent designer ?

And BTW what are these strange fossils holding what look like primitive weapon ? Were there other forms of life before ?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2018 02:31AM by MKSA.


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
February 28, 2018 11:58AM
I use an amazing machine, I pick a part from the vast catalogue, hit the button and bosh....a month later my item materializes as if by magic.
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
March 02, 2018 04:39AM
Quote
MechaBits
I use an amazing machine, I pick a part from the vast catalogue, hit the button and bosh....a month later my item materializes as if by magic.

Yea but that 'machine' is fueled by money, and lots of it!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2018 04:40AM by Dust.
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
March 02, 2018 07:55AM
Quote
Dust
Quote
MechaBits
I use an amazing machine, I pick a part from the vast catalogue, hit the button and bosh....a month later my item materializes as if by magic.

Yea but that 'machine' is fueled by money, and lots of it!

Do you think so? I thought I was one of the most cost conscious people here but know a nice durable/multi-purpose item when I see it, there are certain parts you need, parts you couldnt print in a month of sundays, they are made in mass and are cheap enough, cheaper than you could make, so by the time you get all the parts you need for each axis, what's left a few printed parts to pull it all together. Then you have the option of replacing all the metal with plastic to make as many plastic printers as you want.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2018 08:29AM by MechaBits.
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
March 02, 2018 03:19PM
BTW, did Melty the OP got his answer ?


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
March 03, 2018 10:58PM
Quote
MKSA
BTW, did Melty the OP got his answer ?

No, not really... confused smiley


I think the influx of cheap printer kits and printable upgrades has caused a disconnect between "self assembled printers with some printed parts" and the core mission of a RepRap - being as close as possible to being self replicating.

For example, the metal parts... extrusions and brackets... those are 'vitamins' in RepRap terminology. The wiki page for vitamins is rather clear on several points:
Quote

RepRap machines are intended to evolve to the point at which they will be able to make a great majority of their own parts.
...
In RepRap jargon, a vitamin (also called an "imported part" or "non-printed part") is anything that you need to make a RepRap, which a RepRap cannot itself make.
...
Beyond that, all of the structural and mechanical parts should eventually be printable with FDM Rapid Prototyping technology


And from the Development Pathway:
Quote

Many people find the idea of a Wikipedia: self-replicating machine, in particular machines that have a doubling time, fascinating to think about. Adrian Bowyer's Wealth Without Money essay mentions a "a rapid-prototyping machine that can make all its components other than" a short list of critical components, and hints at "the desirable aim of shortening or eliminating [that list] altogether." RepRap researchers often metaphorically refer to parts on that short list as vitamins. People discussing a RepLab or category: RepRap machines often use phrases such as the "reprappiness factor"[1] or "replicability factor" or "RepRap Factor" or "more replicable"[2] or "% RepRap-able" or "largely self reproducing" or "mostly self-replicating" or "largely self replicating" or "the percentage of the device that is printable".


To be clear, my original question was not in reference to a printer with a few printed parts... but an actual true-to-the-spirit RepRap. thumbs up
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
March 04, 2018 02:59AM
I realized I was an heretic for deviating from the Reprap bible I just discovered ! smiling smiley
I will be cooking in molten plastic for the eternity.

There are people who tried to make an almost all printed parts printer: [proto-plastik.com]
You should try to make one and give us your impression.


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
March 07, 2018 02:33PM
The answer is "RepStrap"
http://reprap.org/wiki/Repstrap


Cameron

Help improve the RepRap wiki!
Just click "Edit" in the top-right corner of the page and start typing.
Anyone can edit the wiki!
Re: Terminology: "RepRap" that can't print itself, but CAN print others?
March 08, 2018 12:46AM
Quote
NewPerfection
The answer is "RepStrap"
http://reprap.org/wiki/Repstrap

I looked at that earlier, but the corner case I'm describing doesn't seem to fit the RepStrap definition...


Quote
wiki
A RepStrap is a 3D printer cobbled together from whatever parts you can find, which will eventually allows you to print the parts for a RepRap printer...

Quote
wiki
A RepStrap is a open-hardware rapid prototyping machine which is made by fabrication processes which aren't under the RepRap umbrella yet. These are becoming less and less common as RepRap printed parts become more available, but are still an option. You can build a 3D printer RepStrap using a tablesaw, or using a lasercutter, and use this to make fun, beautiful, useful things.

So if we take the example of a 3D printer which can't self-replicate because its printed parts are too big...
It's certainly made by a fabrication process (3D printing of standard plastic) that is within the RepRap umbrella, and it isn't in any way "cobbled together from whatever parts you can find".
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login