Can a Reprap Mendel print like an UP printer?

I have been working on my Mendel printer for months now and just got a reseller of the UP printer (PP3DP) to do a live demo. My Mendel is nowhere near the quality of the UP printer. Their printing is so accurate and fine and the speed is moving so fast.

I am just wondering if it is ever possible for a Mendel to print like the UP? If it is, what sort of calibration and how do I do it to ensure that I can print like that. It is driving me nuts as I can't print nice parts with smooth edges.


My setup
Techzone lasercut mendel
Techzone Gen 3 electronics with thermocouple
Prusa heated bed
Repsnapper to generate and run printer


Any advice is greatly appreciated.

The fact that you have to tell us your setup explains part of the problem. Every Up is identical and that allows it to produce consistent results.

I'd say no.

There just isn't enough rigidity in the design, nor precision in the components, to make quite as nice(and fast) prints

Add some linear bearings, ground/hardened shafts, a precision nozzle/heater, micro-stepping drivers, and a nice stiff frame...

For as much as reprappers sometimes hate to admit, mass design/production is a wonderful thing

Oh and SOFTWARE is also key. The best hardware in the world is useless unless there is good code sneaking around in the background.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2011 12:25PM by Andrew Diehl.

I think the answer is yes. But I'm speculating based on my experience with a Mendel only. The only people who can make definitive statements are the ones who have compared them side by side. But since a Mendel is only going to be as good as the person(s) who assembled it and the parts used to assemble it, then you will get varying answers.

As far as speed, the sprinter firmware looks fast enough to me.

@andrew diehl - have you made a side by side comparison?

I have not.

I am speculating based upon my experiences with moving from skate bearings/threaded rod frame to something more substantial.

And in my time researching, I've never seen somebody with a "stock" mendel make prints that look as good as the Up! images

Are we talking about printing in PLA, or ABS?

My recent experience is that ABS is much harder to get good results on. I've never seen Up results up close, but I have to say that I've gotten pretty darn smooth results on my prusa at 0.12 pitch @2X speed on RepSnapper. These were large parts in PLA. Small things and gears usually suck, but can be cleaned up for use.

I did ditch the printed gears on the extruder though...

PLA is a bit hard to judge for me because of the translucency. I'm comparing based on abs as both printers can print in that material.

The thing is, using repsnapper, it tends to always print outside of its border. This causes lumpy sides instead of a smooth line. Furthermore, the reps apperception gckde software has many flaws because at certain levels, the infil does not even touch the side borders. Playing with extrusion multiplier and other settings have not been successful. I did change bearings to linear bearings for increased accuracy instead of roller bearings bit that didn't help much.

I'm just a bit envious of the UP because it prints so well. And I'm quite sure that Mendel should be able to come close to it. I just feel that I'm missing the missing puzzle that'll make it print great parts.

I was speaking about abs.

Perhaps you need to try Skeinfoge. It's pretty complicated, but the added control over everything is really helpful in improving print quality.

I agree. Skeinforge give a level of control over extrusion that you simply cannot acheive with RepSnapper's built-in slicing. Having said that, this whole post got me thinking, and I put in some effort last night into getting the Windows beta version of RepSnapper functional so I could test out my heated bed and print some ABS.

I have to say that I'm very pleased with the results as of this morning. A little more tuning of the layer thickness, and extrusion multiplier and I will have some very smooth prints.

For now, Skeinforge is beyond my ability to decipher. I just don't have to time to devote to figuring out why my setup doesn't work there.


This image may change, or not be available, as it comes from one of the IP Cameras trained on my RepRap

Quote
jcabrer
This image may change, or not be available, as it comes from one of the IP Cameras trained on my RepRap

What image are you referring to?

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Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

I think the Up! printer has some mechanical advantages, mainly the rigidity of the machine as well as use of linear bearings and belt drives compared to threaded rods.

"Rigidity of frame" is not a huge issue for RepRap because we are not a mill. If your exerting enough forces to cause slop on your XYZ, you have your settings jacked up, or you didn't use lock tight/good torque on your bolts.

That said, I think have seen items come off the Prusa and Thing-o-matic that are pretty dang close to Up! build quality.

The difference in quality between an up! and properly jigged and tightened Prusa is the software. Their Skeining engine is a bit better than ours.

Of course the difference is you could build 5 Prusa Mendel for what you would spend on an Up!

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

Rigidity is quite important, even for a reprap. That is one of the things that allows them to print faster. If you are plodding along at 20mm/s reprap works well, but once you get up past 50mm/s you can see small oscillations in your extrusion near corners and turns.

As a person who has now Ran a Darwin, Mendel, Prusa, Huxley, and an Up! I can assure you that the reason that an Up! prints better than a Prusa is not lack of structural Rigidity. It's an issue of quality of plastic, active cooling by a fan, and 90%+ software. The skeining engine/electornics of the Up! is just a bit higher quality. Enrique has done an AMAZING job on Skeinforge, but Up! is a bit better.

Considiering our electronics/firmware/skeining engine area all evolving at a break neck pace, and a prusa is 90% there on matching an up in print quality, unless something strange happens this will be a moot point in a few months.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

This is as good as an Up and was printed on Nopheads Mendel (not hydraraptor)

Its from this blog post. [hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

Nophead uses his own special electornics and firmware btw

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

spacexula Wrote:
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> Nophead uses his own special electornics and
> firmware btw

I know. But the question is about the Mendel, which means the hardware. If the question was can the current opensource electronics and software print as good as a uPrint you then have to include all variations: Ultimaker, Makerbot, etc not just Mendel.

I also have to say I agree with your previous comment on it being all about calibration, slicing and firmware.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

I think we need to settle this by holding a little competition.

Give some ABS as the prize. The object should have the range of features that we know are trouble, as well as those features that regularly print fine.

Of course, we'll need to have Up! entrants as well as a variety of RepRap and variants.

Sound like fun???

Good luck with that Prizes don't seem to be all that productive in getting inovation in this community.

jcabrer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we need to settle this by holding a little
> competition.
>
> Give some ABS as the prize. The object should
> have the range of features that we know are
> trouble, as well as those features that regularly
> print fine.
>
> Of course, we'll need to have Up! entrants as well
> as a variety of RepRap and variants.
>
> Sound like fun???

---

repraplogphase.blogspot.com

I don't know. I think a prize could be worth something if done right. My experience with reprap/makerbot prize competitions is that they often are either too ambitious, or too trivial. For instance the holiday prusa competition was a great idea, but most of the friends I had, who wanted to build a printer, didn't think they could get it done by the deadline and didn't want to be on the hook to finish so fast. ( I know a month doesn't seem fast to some of you but it does to a complete novice.) I did finally find someone to take the parts but they couldn't finish by the deadline either.
Other prize competitions I have seen are maybe too simple and are therefore not compelling enough to warrant the time involved. From a two time prize competition entrant here are my suggestions.

1. Try to allow enough time for publicity/prototyping/etc. It can take a couple weeks for announcements to make it through the community, a couple weeks to come up with an idea, a couple weeks to make it work, etc. Spend a significant effort publicizing the contest and continue updating progress throughout.

2. Make it challenging but not too daunting for newbs, or know your audience. A $150 prize may seem like a great incentive, but if the entry requires 100+ hours of work most will not even consider it. There are opportunity costs after all.

3. Make the rules simple and transparent. Judging should be as objective as possible. Some will not attempt a contest they feel is too subjectively judged. (If mine is the BEST, but the judges like the stupid one over there ...)
3a. What happens if the contestants don't fulfill all the requirements, will you still award the prizes based on highest scored entrant?
3b. Rules should be transparent enough that it is obvious who won. Quickly award prize and publicize again.

4. Have prizes for more than just the first place winner. Knowing you have a better chance to win something can increase the number of entrants.

5. Make the contest meaningful. If the task has no obvious value to the community some might avoid it just because they consider it a waste of their time. Many of the active reprapers are motivated by the perceived value of their contributions to the community. If the task is something that is considered worthwhile without the prize it will draw more contestants.

Well, that's all for now. I'm thinking I'll have to put my money where my mouth is sometime soon.

I'm going to work on this...

Up printer NOW IT´S DOWN.

I received a mini Up printer from pp3dp on 07 November 2012 and I have had a lot of problem with it. The mini came with an unlevelled platform up to 1,7mm and lacks of any levelling mechanism.

I sent them a lot of mails but Pp3dp people are joking with me and I feel cheated. I contacted with his manager Joseph Guo that at first seems to be willing to help, but finally hi does the same, never respond directly to my questions but tergiversate them. They repeated all the time to put some paper here and there to adjust the platform and advised me over and over to use the beta software to level the platform, but it does not work in my computer and make things even worse. My previous comments on their blog have disappeared and probably my last one will even not be published at all. They offered to me to send the printer back but I will lose the shipping and the taxes I paid. That is no fair and It’s not just money. I want to get some justice. They sell printer as OUT OF THE BOX that it’s very far to be true.
After I spent my entire holiday time modifying the platform, today, Sunday 25 November 2012, I finally manage to modify the printer adding a levelling platform mechanism, but the printer vibrates a lot and still I have not been able to print something decent. Also any time I initialize the mini it lost his Z zero point and I have to set it again.
The mini has been so cheaply made that due to the weak clips it would not last too long.
My Mini came with one clip broken and anther broken up when I take off the platform.

Delta system knows that the mini has a lot of problems but still today they are commercializing it anyway.
I cannot understand how there are there people making positive review of the up mini printer.
Anyway, I KNOW that there are a lot of people that have had the same issue than me. I will start a campaign on the Web to inform people about the way delta Micro System is cheating people. I really hope no one will fall anymore into being cheated by Delta Microsystem.

I will update this post.
mixart