Machining quote for extruder parts - TOO EXPENSIVE!

Hello all,

Just wanted to share my experience of getting a quote for parts for the extruder tip shown here: [www.reprap.org]

Attached is the quote file for different quantities

VERY Expensive. I am very grateful for this community to provide me with cheaper parts. I hope we can continue to help each other. Greed usually ruins this cooperation...

I agree. That's really expensive. I'm working with a cnc place to help with my build. My first nozzle if you look at my blog cost me only $50, and that's for material and milling in quantity of one. I'd say look else where for another quote. Problem that I've ran into in the past is that very very few cnc machining places are willing to work with small quantities.

Yeah, This user: CdnReprap , he is selling parts for the extruder at a good price. Brnrd also recommended him. Im getting all the parts for 40$.

Wow! $75.00 for a "Geared Extruder Nozzle" in quantity. I thought that the $45.00, that I was charging, was high (This was primarily due to the parts that can't be done on a turret lathe as there are lots of tool changes, setup changes, etc.) and I don't even have CNC.

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is the PEEK support block as I can only get it in sheets and not bars. So, a lot of time is spent band sawing them to size. Maybe by using round PEEK, with the correct CNC machinery, the PEEK blocks could be made much cheaper.

Regards,

Brian

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 10:46AM by reifsnyderb.

If the support block is a problem, I was able to make this without any lathe at all
[reprap.org]

It also helps that PEEK rod is inexplicably far cheaper than PEEK sheet.

So I just asked the company what quantity I need to match the $45 for all four parts. They said if I order 200 sets of extruder parts, then they will give that price.

SO i might just do this in August and try to sell off 199 of them.

Thatll require me to put $9,000 down and thats more than what i have in my bank account sadly.

Anywho. there you go.

What machinery would i need to purchase to make these parts myself?

Thanks. I think using round stock is a much better alternative. It may be possible to just drill the holes and maybe both sides do not have to be milled. However, I would have to experiment.

Regards,

Brian

jsadusk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the support block is a problem, I was able to
> make this without any lathe at all
> [reprap.org]#
> Rounded_Support_Block
>
> It also helps that PEEK rod is inexplicably far
> cheaper than PEEK sheet.

I look forward to any developments on Extruder tips.

Is there a specific thread for this?

Thanks!

I also did an extruder hot-end block with Round PEEK - Here only using a pillar drill and basic tools.

---

[richrap.blogspot.com]

This looks like the quote of a shop that doesn't really want the work, for whatever reason.

For that cost, I imagine you'd just buy your own machines.

Yeah, you could get a pretty nice lathe for $9,000.

Dale Dunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This looks like the quote of a shop that doesn't
> really want the work, for whatever reason.
>
> For that cost, I imagine you'd just buy your own
> machines.

Quote

I also did an extruder hot-end block with Round PEEK - Here only using a pillar drill and basic tools.

So how are the results?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 03:10PM by owism8.

Any suggestions for some good machines to buy so I can make the extruder tip pieces on my own?

Thanks
from noob

reifsnyderb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, you could get a pretty nice lathe for
> $9,000.
>
> Dale Dunn Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This looks like the quote of a shop that
> doesn't
> > really want the work, for whatever reason.
> >
> > For that cost, I imagine you'd just buy your
> own
> > machines.

I'd say that unless you want to go into the machining as a business or start a new hobby, you are better off letting the experts helping you out. It takes lots of skill to get a good piece out correctly. Plus it takes tons of time to learn how to use these machines. I have 2 CNC machines myself. I use them mostly for wood works. But when I need, or want, tolerances in the thousandth, I get my machinist friends to help out. Take your time and find someone willing to help for a reasonable price. Typically I'm charged anywhere from $40-$60/hour, depending on the type of beer I bring. It's well worth it. I've compared my work piece to that done professionally....there is no comparison.

Hello,

Well, it really depends upon what you want to do. Do you want to go into production or just make a few items for your own use? Another factor is your budget. You should always consider the tool to be about 1/2 the price of using it due to the cost of the tooling. i.e. If the lathe costs $1,000, budget $2,000.

Finally, what kind of space do you have?

Regards,

Brian




owism8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any suggestions for some good machines to buy so I
> can make the extruder tip pieces on my own?
>
> Thanks
> from noob
>
> reifsnyderb Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah, you could get a pretty nice lathe for
> > $9,000.
> >
> > Dale Dunn Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This looks like the quote of a shop that
> > doesn't
> > > really want the work, for whatever reason.
> > >
> > > For that cost, I imagine you'd just buy your
> > own
> > > machines.

Hello,

While I appreciate your point, if owism8 wants to do this as a hobby or business he has to start somewhere. I started out with a Sherline lathe in a corner of the kitchen.

$40.00 to $60.00 per hour is a pretty low rate. I guess your bring along pretty good beer.

Regards,

Brian



13thfloor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd say that unless you want to go into the
> machining as a business or start a new hobby, you
> are better off letting the experts helping you
> out. It takes lots of skill to get a good piece
> out correctly. Plus it takes tons of time to
> learn how to use these machines. I have 2 CNC
> machines myself. I use them mostly for wood
> works. But when I need, or want, tolerances in
> the thousandth, I get my machinist friends to help
> out. Take your time and find someone willing to
> help for a reasonable price. Typically I'm
> charged anywhere from $40-$60/hour, depending on
> the type of beer I bring. It's well worth it.
> I've compared my work piece to that done
> professionally....there is no comparison.

What tolerances did you give them, and are you supplying the material? Providing stock which only has to be machined on 1 side can greatly reduce the cost. (markup on material can be huge)

As an aside, if you are going to get something done at that cost it's probably worth while to re-design it for optimal performance rather than ease of DIY manufacturability.

To all the above:

I plan on buying atleast a vice and using my dremil for drilling. Obviously this isnt the safest method, but as reifsnyderb said, you have to start somewhere.

I've taken machining classes at RPI and used lathes and drills and all the jazz before, its really not too difficult a learning curve.

I'll keep my budget at $2,000 for purchasing a drill, lathe.

Here are some i saw on craigs list in my area: Albany NY

Is this a good deal? [albany.craigslist.org]

drill press: [albany.craigslist.org]

three in one: [albany.craigslist.org]

8 inch drill press: [albany.craigslist.org]

I really appreciate this community. Thanks all for your help.

In my opinion, you are going to need a decent metal lathe and some tooling if you want to do this yourself (and make any money)

The all in one appears to be for wood.

Hello,

The all-in-one machine is for wood. I would avoid all-in-one machines of any sort as they always have compromises.

The drill press looks ok.

For what you want to do, a metal lathe is required. A metal lathe can also be used for light milling and as a horizontal drill press, if necessary. When my drill press was broken, I used one of my lathes as a horizontal drill press and it worked pretty well.

Regarding Metal Lathes:
If weight is a problem, something like the G8688 (7x12 from Grizzly) would work as it is pretty light. There is also quite a lot of information and upgrades available for them. My only concern would be the electronics. I am a fan of the "KISS" principle.

The G4000 (9x19 from Grizzly) is also pretty popular. However, it has a really bad spindle height to bed width ratio and, as a result, has some issues with rigidity. (Harbor Freight sells this model, as well.)

The G0602 (10x22 from Grizzly) is said to be nice. Don't be fooled by any of the Quick Change Gear Boxes (QCGB ) that are advertised on these machines, however. They still require a lot of gear changes and, in my opinion, the QCGB is simply a marketing ploy.

With your budget, my preference would by something like the Lathemaster 8x14. It is heavy for it's size and uses change gears (which you will have to deal with in this class, anyhow). (This machine is also available through Harbor Freight)

A Taig or Sherline may be a little small for quickly making extruder parts. (I use the sherline for drilling the orifice holes and cleaning up the nozzle tips.) A Sherline would work, however you would have to take light cuts and large holes would have to be drilled in steps and/or bored.

A Taig does not have any threading capability at all. Some people have added it, however. I didn't buy a Taig primarily because of the lack of threading capability.

Without a known good lathe, I would be careful about buying a used lathe. Most used lathes require some sort of repair and a known good lathe can be used to fix it. However, that being said, if you happen to find a 9 inch SouthBend in great shape I would jump on it. A fully tooled 9 inch SouthBend, in good condition, could be purchased for no more than $1,500 or so. (This does depend upon the scarcity and area of the country. You may even be able to find one in the $1,000 range.) The 9c used change gears, the 9b had a QCGB (quick change gearbox) and no power cross feed, the 9a had a QCGB and both power feeds.

Here is a link to some advice on how to evaluate a used lathe: [www.mermac.com]

Regards,

Brian

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 10:15AM by reifsnyderb.

Another thought regarding new, smaller lathes:

Many people regard the new, under $3,000, lathes as kits. Many people have had to tear them down and clean them up first. They have been reported to ship with extras such as casting sand in the various nooks and crannies and cheap fasteners.

I can personally vouch that the Sherline was pretty much ready-to-go out of the box.

Regards,

Brian

owism8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also did an extruder hot-end block with Round
> PEEK - Here only using a pillar drill and basic
> tools.
> So how are the results?

It worked very well and is still all connected up to a Wade style extruder, I moved onto printing with 1.75mm Filament, so I may not ever use it again, but I expect I will use round PEEK again at some point for new hot-end supports.

---

[richrap.blogspot.com]

Owism8 you might want to check out these guys Crawmach.
I know of them through the amateur astronomy community. He is an astronomer that started to maker
telescope focusers. He is a great guy to deal with. Worth checking out.

---

__________________________________________________________________________
"I like to be, what I like to see, in you and me.
I am the Stallion, Mang."

ISTAR Scope Club

Thanks all for the feedback. I'll look into it!

Your post has inspired me to update the Wiki page information for my extruder design. One of the design goals was to avoid the need for fancy tooling. I think with the current design, I've reduced it to simple elegance. Check out the Wildseyed Simple Hot End v2.

I got a good start on setting up the page formatting, and getting some good pictures in there, but the instructions are still incomplete. I'll be filling in the remaining items this evening. I'll be sure to post in the General forum when it's all there.

Thanks!

Yeah i was waiting for pictures because that helps the most for myself and im sure to all others to visualize this contraption.

Awesome. I'll try it out. Whats that blue wrap made of, or where can I acquire it. Also please put up a list of where you purchased the parts. For noobs like me, I'll need that! (reprap guideline: to allow this to be replicated by noobs ofcourse)

Thanks Jcabrer

@Jcabrer - Haven't you had issues of plastic oozing out of the PTFE tube and eventually making the brass piece slip out? Why don't you put a PEEK block there to hold it back? I've seen all the successful tips so far use this method, just wondering if you have overcome this issue some other way?

Thanks

jcabrer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your post has inspired me to update the Wiki page
> information for my extruder design. One of the
> design goals was to avoid the need for fancy
> tooling. I think with the current design, I've
> reduced it to simple elegance. Check out the
> Wildseyed Simple Hot End v2.
>
> I got a good start on setting up the page
> formatting, and getting some good pictures in
> there, but the instructions are still incomplete.
> I'll be filling in the remaining items this
> evening. I'll be sure to post in the General
> forum when it's all there.

No problems with that in my design. The PTFE is on the inside of the brass coupling. When the brass warms up, the PTFE expands, producing an even tighter seal. The expansion does not bind the filament because I take out additional material from the hole after I tighten everything down. I do this manually using the same M3 drill bit.

You might also find it interesting that I mount the hot end to the extruder body by clamping onto the PTFE directly with four set screws, and no other supports. This only works if your extruder body is made from ABS. PLA absolutely will not work with my hot end.

One other hint, which I've posted in various places: You need to set the extruder stepper current just high enough so that it backlashes when run on a cold hot end, rather than strip the filament. This eliminates problems with clogging the hobbed nut, and reduces excessive force on the hot end mounts.

By the way, the blue wrap is know as Emergency Tape, or Silicone Tape. It can be purchased at many hardware stores, as can almost all of the parts of my extruder.

Hey Brian,

Which Sherline model did you buy, or advise for me to purchase for use in this reprap project?

thanks.

reifsnyderb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello,
>
> The all-in-one machine is for wood. I would avoid
> all-in-one machines of any sort as they always
> have compromises.
>
> The drill press looks ok.
>
> For what you want to do, a metal lathe is
> required. A metal lathe can also be used for
> light milling and as a horizontal drill press, if
> necessary. When my drill press was broken, I used
> one of my lathes as a horizontal drill press and
> it worked pretty well.
>
> Regarding Metal Lathes:
> If weight is a problem, something like the G8688
> (7x12 from Grizzly) would work as it is pretty
> light. There is also quite a lot of information
> and upgrades available for them. My only concern
> would be the electronics. I am a fan of the
> "KISS" principle.
>
> The G4000 (9x19 from Grizzly) is also pretty
> popular. However, it has a really bad spindle
> height to bed width ratio and, as a result, has
> some issues with rigidity. (Harbor Freight sells
> this model, as well.)
>
> The G0602 (10x22 from Grizzly) is said to be nice.
> Don't be fooled by any of the Quick Change Gear
> Boxes (QCGB ) that are advertised on these
> machines, however. They still require a lot of
> gear changes and, in my opinion, the QCGB is
> simply a marketing ploy.
>
> With your budget, my preference would by something
> like the Lathemaster 8x14. It is heavy for it's
> size and uses change gears (which you will have to
> deal with in this class, anyhow). (This machine
> is also available through Harbor Freight)
>
> A Taig or Sherline may be a little small for
> quickly making extruder parts. (I use the
> sherline for drilling the orifice holes and
> cleaning up the nozzle tips.) A Sherline would
> work, however you would have to take light cuts
> and large holes would have to be drilled in steps
> and/or bored.
>
> A Taig does not have any threading capability at
> all. Some people have added it, however. I
> didn't buy a Taig primarily because of the lack of
> threading capability.
>
> Without a known good lathe, I would be careful
> about buying a used lathe. Most used lathes
> require some sort of repair and a known good lathe
> can be used to fix it. However, that being said,
> if you happen to find a 9 inch SouthBend in great
> shape I would jump on it. A fully tooled 9 inch
> SouthBend, in good condition, could be purchased
> for no more than $1,500 or so. (This does depend
> upon the scarcity and area of the country. You
> may even be able to find one in the $1,000 range.)
> The 9c used change gears, the 9b had a QCGB
> (quick change gearbox) and no power cross feed,
> the 9a had a QCGB and both power feeds.
>
> Here is a link to some advice on how to evaluate a
> used lathe: [www.mermac.com]
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian

I am reconstructing the Techzone tip right now and instead of using the silicone cement mentioned herE: [www.reprap.org]

I want to use kapton tape. Will this increase the life of the tip? I've heard the nichrome is the issue? Anyone have any success with Nichrome? I did get my heater block, but I want to give the nichrome another shot before I try the heater block.

Thanks all.