VDX
Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 27, 2018 06:04AM
... this is a transscription from a thread, I've started in the German sub-forum:


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[VDX]:

Hello, folks,

... once again an attempt to ask the "swarm consciousness" of the RepRap community to get a useful assessment winking smiley

While thinking about the background and possible further developments of the "Floating Island Story Project" I came across several methods how to produce absolute "high-tech" materials with currently available means/possibilities.

I also want to incorporate a few of the ideas/concepts into the story in an "encapsulated" manner ... but with a few others I'm thinking about publishing them to "protect my back" .... or maybe trying to find an industry partner who would be interested -- to get money and options for the actual "garbage island" project confused smiley

These include, for example, ideas on how "bullet-proof" films or carbon-ceramic super fibres with *tens to 100 times the tensile strength of steel fibres with very high mechanical resistance to abrasion and seawater could be produced from organic base materials ... and also some suitable "killer applications" for it ...


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[Michael K.]:

It's really hard to offer tips or solutions without a more accurate clue.
Patenting is expensive and time-consuming.
Perhaps there is also a solution where everyone could participate with a small amount.
I could imagine a kind of non-profit RepRap association/foundation where patents, donations and ideas can be collected and marketed.
Also some ideas from the forum could be protected against commercial abuse and license fees could be collected from companies.

How could such a thing look legally?
Is it allowed to make a bigger profit to finance later expensive expenses (ships/machines)?
Who should manage it?
How do you make sure that no one can pull out later to stuff their pockets?

Greetings Micha


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[VDX]:

Hi, Micha,

... yes, these are partly my concerns - even a "tied foundation" can be exploited or abused (as can be seen currently at the Trump Foundation).

I haven't had any positive experiences with utility models and patents - my utility model from 1995 for the first CO2 lasercutter for an "entry price" of 7500 DM with "3D-Option" (hidden option for LOM-"3D-printing") didn't bring anything ... my boss at that time stopped the project for lack of interest after 2 prototypes/pre-series units ... and today it is THE "reference design" for all the small K40 and similar laser cutters eye rolling smiley

A few later patents from 1999 to 2004 on microdrives, super-sharp microscope optics and "femtoliter dipenses" have also brought nothing and were released after 1 to 3 years ...

To "publish" such ideas in the forum in order to prevent foreign patents doesn't seem to work properly either - some of the ideas we discussed here "in public" were patented years later or celebrated as "innovation" of a company or funding project group eye popping smiley

Also a pure D- or clearly more expensive EU project would not prevent the patenting in the USA, China or elsewhere ... and a "World" patent is practically priceless eye rolling smiley

As long as it is about the protective rights (or "keeping your back free") in Germany, even a more favourable protection for utility models, which is released again after one year, would suffice ... but not for worldwide protection.

And this "island project" is also located outside all state regulations in "international waters", which redefines it completely from a legal point of view, so that the legal implications have to be reconsidered ...



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We've experienced the "later tearing out and stuffing oneself into one's own pockets" here at RepRap with the company Makerbot - one of the founders of Makerbot previously developed the RepRap electronics up to Gen3 as OpenSource within the framework of the community -- then he is "commercially torn out" at the instigation of his partner and after a year of cooperation with the community Makerbot has "taken off" quite big eye popping smiley


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My intention is less to get rich with the ideas (although that might help otherwise) than to provide a better starting base and survival chance for the "island projects".

In time, this should become independent anyway -- at the latest, if out there really own "island nations" would develop ...


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 28, 2018 03:05AM
With patents you only want to keep the competition behind you. But by making it open source you can avoid someone else will ever file a patent of your idea and protect his business. ( blocking key technologies )

As I said before, you can not win against global players as long as you play by their rules. The green revolution has to start from bottom up. No government will ever take the neccessary steps on it's own.
You want to wait until all political systems find a compromise they can agree to? What would that compromise look like? It will sure not be enough to safe the planet.
VDX
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 28, 2018 06:06AM
... my idea is to "raise awareness" enough to start a new "bottom-up-revolution", comparable to the RepRap-project -- here we too had to work hard to spread the idea and get enough momentum ...


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
VDX
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 28, 2018 06:08AM
... if you're interested, then look into the related German thread - there are some more detailed discussions and ideas how to get it running ...


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 28, 2018 03:06PM
Patents are legal mechanisms to allow you to profit from your inventions, by preventing others from using them. If you don't want to do that, then don't use a patent. To force a technology to be public domain, all you have to do is to be able to prove you invented the technology first.

However, patents (and preventing people from patenting your invention) are only as strong as your ability to litigate. If you don't have the financial resources to fight a protracted legal case, probably in several jurisdictions internationally, then the whole idea is moot.
VDX
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 28, 2018 03:17PM
... it's not this easy anyhow eye rolling smiley

AFAIK, the USA recently changed the patenting regulations from "first to file" to "first to patent" -- so even with a "disclosure" to prevent alien IP's, an American company can intervent to get the IP rights and block the original inventor, if he didn't file a patent on his own confused smiley


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 28, 2018 03:46PM
I don't know the details of US patent law, but the principal is that a patent can only be given on a *new* invention. If it's not new, it can't be patented. If there is prior art, then it can't be patented. Otherwise I could search for a patent for e.g. the wheel, and if there wasn't actually a patent, I could patent it. And then try to force all the automobile makers to pay me a royalty.
VDX
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 28, 2018 05:28PM
... AFAIK this "first to patent" regulation has a delay-time of a year, in which a "new" (not known before this 1 year period) invention can be patented ... regardless, if owned by the applicant or not eye popping smiley

*** EDIT ***

... it's not called "first to patent", but "first to file" - and it seems, all the other countries did this all the time, and USA changed 2013 for "ease of use" and to harmonize with the other countries.

So - if not patented by the inventor but disclosed openly -- any other applicant could file his own patent on the same invention within a year confused smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2018 05:44PM by VDX.


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 29, 2018 01:56AM
Quote
VDX
to get money and options for the actual "garbage island" project

If you want to make money from the raising fear about floods and hurricans, start selling swimming generators with reverse osmosis waterproduction.
Or maybe think of recycling plastic to make Corpse bags and Coffins. Sounds rude, but announcing those 'inventions' will probably wake up a lot of people.
VDX
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 29, 2018 04:44AM
... there are many ways to "raise awareness" -- my main intention is to give some "positive long-term options", instead of raising fear eye rolling smiley


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 30, 2018 11:14PM
Quote
VDX

So - if not patented by the inventor but disclosed openly -- any other applicant could file his own patent on the same invention within a year confused smiley

Probably they wouldn't get the patent; if the patent office did some research and found the prior art (i.e. the real inventor's disclosure), they wouldn't award the patent. Even if the patent was awarded, the holder still has to defend it. They *could* write cease-and-desist letters to anyone they find using the invention. But, if it came to court, and prior art was found, the patent couldn't be defended. So anyone aware of the prior art would ignore the cease-and-desist and carry on using the invention.

[Edit:] Ignoring the vagaries of the US legal system, and the ability of a litigant with deep pockets to extend legal processes until their opponent is broke.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2018 11:18PM by frankvdh.
VDX
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 31, 2018 05:51AM
... we had several developments and discussion here in the forums, which were patented years later ... AFAIK Makerbot too did or tried this with some "inventions", previously shared here openly sad smiley


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Innovations - Release/Public Domain or Patenting?
December 31, 2018 07:52AM
I'm sure patent officers like to do as little work as possible & take the money on offer(especially in the USA but no doubt other places), rather than be bothered to hunt for prior art from someone too poor or dumb to patent.
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