New MKS SBASE Smoothieware-compatible board from China

I hadn't even noticed the price change, but you're right. I just checked, looks like it went up 5 CAD. Still a good deal.

Shapeoko....I've been having a heck of a time getting decent Delrin V-wheels for my Ord Bot. It seems many are made with the inner "step" milled a good bit thinner than the 1mm shim, so the Delrin wheel can slide side to side on the bearings. I even had one V-wheel with so much run-out it actually wore a low spot in the Makerslide. I just rebuilt the printer with Anodized Makerslide (the Ord Bot kit I got from ATI came with soft mill finish stuff) and it took two packs of 20 V-wheels to just find 14 good ones. All the shims were slightly over-sized and the Delrin steps were undersized. Inventables acknowledged there has been some quality issues with their V-wheel supplier (and they sent me 20 more wheels for free) so I'm hopeful whoever is making them gets it right. How hard is it to mill a 1mm thick step in a piece of Delrin?

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w3drk
I hadn't even noticed the price change, but you're right. I just checked, looks like it went up 5 CAD. Still a good deal.

Shapeoko....I've been having a heck of a time getting decent Delrin V-wheels for my Ord Bot. It seems many are made with the inner "step" milled a good bit thinner than the 1mm shim, so the Delrin wheel can slide side to side on the bearings. I even had one V-wheel with so much run-out it actually wore a low spot in the Makerslide. I just rebuilt the printer with Anodized Makerslide (the Ord Bot kit I got from ATI came with soft mill finish stuff) and it took two packs of 20 V-wheels to just find 14 good ones. All the shims were slightly over-sized and the Delrin steps were undersized. Inventables acknowledged there has been some quality issues with their V-wheel supplier (and they sent me 20 more wheels for free) so I'm hopeful whoever is making them gets it right. How hard is it to mill a 1mm thick step in a piece of Delrin?

Must admit mine are all OpenBuilds ones which are fine (My Brother bought a C-Beam router from Inventables (Robocutters I think in the UK)) and also had Quality issues!

thanks w3drk and other friends, we have change the Crystal,replace CSTCE25M0V53-R0 with QRA26B25.0000MFT2C2F, replace CSTCE12M0V53-R0 with QRA26B12.0000MFT2C2F to fix the Ethernet bug, now we change it by manual and will fix the problem on next version.

We don't find the bug because we print some small file by lan and it is ok in our Lan. But use CSTCE25M0V53-R0 is our fault,it will cause unstable,and we did not test MKS Sbase by Ethernet for long time. After change crystal we test it by print a big file about eight days by lan , and it is ok.

we feel sorry for the bug, and from now on,all MKS Sbase V1.2 will change as fellow:

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flyway97
thanks w3drk and other friends, we have change the Crystal,replace CSTCE25M0V53-R0 with QRA26B25.0000MFT2C2F, replace CSTCE12M0V53-R0 with QRA26B12.0000MFT2C2F to fix the Ethernet bug, now we change it by manual and will fix the problem on next version.

We don't find the bug because we print some small file by lan and it is ok in our Lan. But use CSTCE25M0V53-R0 is our fault,it will cause unstable,and we did not test MKS Sbase by Ethernet for long time. After change crystal we test it by print a big file about eight days by lan , and it is ok.

we feel sorry for the bug, and from now on,all MKS Sbase V1.2 will change as fellow:
[attachment 70393 1.png]

At the amount of help you get for free from the community and the amount of beta-testing you get you should really consider open sourcing your design. You are basically piggy-backing on the smoothieboard's open source design, why are you afraid somebody will copy you?
At least send the guys free V1.2 revisions, if those guys were paid at their current job for the amount of hours they put into troubleshooting your design they would certainly afford smoothieboards by now.

Thanks for considering it.

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@ Flyway97, have you ever checked your reprap.org PN Box ?

Chri

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[chrisu02.wordpress.com] Quadmax Intel Delid Tools

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flyway97
thanks w3drk and other friends, we have change the Crystal,replace CSTCE25M0V53-R0 with QRA26B25.0000MFT2C2F, replace CSTCE12M0V53-R0 with QRA26B12.0000MFT2C2F to fix the Ethernet bug, now we change it by manual and will fix the problem on next version.

Where I can find the resonator QRA26B25.0000MFT2C2F? Google knows nothing about it/

I'm not sure about other countries but since I'm in the states I normally buy from Digikey.com and recommend their part numbers SER3441-ND for the Ethernet PHY and SER3424-ND for the uC crystals. These are 30PPM stability parts and should do the trick nicely. I'm sure many other component vendors have the same or similar crystals available.

It's important to note if load capacitors C52 and C53 for the 25MHz PHY resonator were not populated by the factory like my two SBASE boards, those will likely be needed too. Without them it is likely the quartz crystal will only work sporadically if at all. So if C52 and C53 are missing, you'll need to order a pair of 12pf NP0 0603 sized caps too. There should also be a 1-meg resistor bridging the input sides of C52 and C53 (which my SBASEs already had), but I doubt this is critical.

I wonder why MKS is going through the trouble to refit the uC oscillator with quartz crystals as well... Perhaps my lockup issues are related to an unstable uC clock source as well?

And I agree with realthor and others, please open source this board. We're doing much of the leg-work researching and fixing your design faults anyway, just license it as open source and provide the design files on Github. You'll end up with a more refined product and probably sell more as a result anyway.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2016 09:54AM by w3drk.

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w3drk
[snip]And I agree with realthor and others, please open source this board. We're doing much of the leg-work researching and fixing your design faults anyway, just license it as open source and provide the design files on Github. You'll end up with a more refined product and probably sell more as a result anyway.

Agreed. If you open sourced this you wouldn't be looked down on as much and you would have a superior product at a reasonable price (might even make Smoothie stand up and take notice). It is up to the originators but I suspect they will remain foolish and SBASE will just be a niche product that will never be accepted by the community until they open source it.

I still do not understand how something open source can be taken from then closed source?

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

I believe that's called it's just not worth the hassle and expense of enforcing the open source license. I do believe that have tried all the low cost alternatives but since that didn't work its lawyer time and that's expensive.

I like the SBASE board layout but I won't buy one until it complies with the original license.

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Dark Alchemist

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w3drk
[snip]And I agree with realthor and others, please open source this board. We're doing much of the leg-work researching and fixing your design faults anyway, just license it as open source and provide the design files on Github. You'll end up with a more refined product and probably sell more as a result anyway.

Agreed. If you open sourced this you wouldn't be looked down on as much and you would have a superior product at a reasonable price (might even make Smoothie stand up and take notice). It is up to the originators but I suspect they will remain foolish and SBASE will just be a niche product that will never be accepted by the community until they open source it.

I still do not understand how something open source can be taken from then closed source?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2016 05:36PM by WZ9V.

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WZ9V
I believe that's called it's just not worth the hassle and expense of enforcing the open source license. I do believe that have tried all the low cost alternatives but since that didn't work its lawyer time and that's expensive.

I like the SBASE board layout but I won't buy one until it complies with the original license.

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Dark Alchemist

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w3drk
[snip]And I agree with realthor and others, please open source this board. We're doing much of the leg-work researching and fixing your design faults anyway, just license it as open source and provide the design files on Github. You'll end up with a more refined product and probably sell more as a result anyway.

Agreed. If you open sourced this you wouldn't be looked down on as much and you would have a superior product at a reasonable price (might even make Smoothie stand up and take notice). It is up to the originators but I suspect they will remain foolish and SBASE will just be a niche product that will never be accepted by the community until they open source it.

I still do not understand how something open source can be taken from then closed source?

You know after this fiasco I have changed my tune. I am a convert (thank Arthur for some of this change and the makers of SBASE for the rest) and I can't sink my hard earned money, regardless how little, into a product that would only get better, and maybe even less costly, if it complied with the open source arena considering it took from it to begin with.

With them openly admitting they have flaws YET still are refusing to embrace that which they took from people need to have their heads examined if they support such audacity.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

to Chri: i have reply you, thank you.

to karabas : [www.gzdydz.cn]

to w3drk : we change uC oscillator because it will be better for the lan, and not relate to lockup issues. the lockup issues maybe come from sd card problem. we have found MKS Sbase need better sd card then Mega2560's board.



I have send SCH and PCB and BOM file of MKS SBase V1.2 on to Github, they can be find here: https://github.com/makerbase-mks/MKS-SBASE ,and the file is MKS SBASE BOM_V12.xls and MKS SBASE SCH_V12.pdf . Maybe it is enough to research the board.

Sorry for not open the source file,because we worry about it will be clone with bad component. and we are accused by purchaser they mistake we produce the clone board(this things has happen on our other board)

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2016 01:51AM by flyway97.

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flyway97
to Chri: i have reply you, thank you.

to karabas : [www.gzdydz.cn]

to w3drk : we change uC oscillator because it will be better for the lan, and not relate to lockup issues. the lockup issues maybe come from sd card problem. we have found MKS Sbase need better sd card then Mega2560's board.



I have send SCH and PCB and BOM file of MKS SBase V1.2 on to Github, they can be find here: https://github.com/makerbase-mks/MKS-SBASE ,and the file is MKS SBASE BOM_V12.xls and MKS SBASE SCH_V12.pdf . Maybe it is enough to research the board.

Sorry for not open the source file,because we worry about it will be clone with bad component. and we are accused by purchaser they mistake we produce the clone board(this things has happen on our other board)

I thought for it to be open source that all of it had to be. It is like a pregnancy where you either are or you are not as there is no partial to it but I could be wrong.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

@flyway97, thanks for the BOM, that is at least a little helpful.

I must admit I find it ironic you're afraid of the SBASE being copied in an inferior way, is that not what the SBASE is of the official Smoothieboard? Folks are purchasing this controller thinking it's supported by Smoothieware when it's not, then left to fix your issues with switching noise, analog ground, and now the wrong PHY and uC clock devices. By basing the SBASE off the Smoothieboard design (yet still making silly mistakes) you're legally (and morally) bound by the license to contribute your work back to the community using the same license as the Smoothieboard. You're benefiting from the hard work of the community yet contributing nothing useful back in return. You can't have it both ways.

[smoothieware.org]

If you're so worried about counterfeits, why not put a serial number on your boards with an online database to authenticate legitimate boards? Or maybe even put the serial number in a serial EEPROM... There are plenty of creative ways to deal with counterfeits.

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w3drk
@flyway97, thanks for the BOM, that is at least a little helpful.

I must admit I find it ironic you're afraid of the SBASE being copied in an inferior way, is that not what the SBASE is of the official Smoothieboard? Folks are purchasing this controller thinking it's supported by Smoothieware when it's not, then left to fix your issues with switching noise, analog ground, and now the wrong PHY and uC clock devices. By basing the SBASE off the Smoothieboard design (yet still making silly mistakes) you're legally (and morally) bound by the license to contribute your work back to the community using the same license as the Smoothieboard. You're benefiting from the hard work of the community yet contributing nothing useful back in return. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure how many people actually believe that the MKS SBase (which runs Smoothieware as does the less popular and more expensive (possibly defunct now Milkshake board) with an official Smoothieboard. I have an MKS SBase and in no way shape or form did I ever (nor have I heard of anyone) confusing the two. Smoothieware yes since they both operate off the same system.

I'd have to believe someone would be pretty stupid to think the two are supported by the makers of the Smoothieboard. Arthur has helped many with Smoothieware on an MKS Sbase but I'm not sure hardware wise if he ever has.

Next, Linux is Open Source, so should HP, Dell, etc. and any other manufacturer of computer components and peripherals put a BOM, schematics etc. out there since the argument is if the software is Open Source so should the hardware be Open Source. I can't wrap my head around that.

I'm also not sure if MKS SBase is a one for one exact copy of the Smoothieboard just modified a bit. However in my mind I don't see how that matters. Many motherboards use the same GLU chips, sockets etc. Slightly different components but they all end up (with a varying degree of success depending on the fan boy) booting up into an OS.

I'm not so much concerned about Open Source and I can see where the forum members help the manufacturer identify the problems. However, if you are strongly in support of Open Source then I would think you wouldn't be helping fix the problems.

See... I'm confused.

@Viper97 An educated buyer should certainly know the difference, yes. But I imagine it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone could search online for "Smoothieboard" and end up looking at an SBASE. If you're curious try a search for "Smoothieboard" eBay and you'll see the SBASE pop up as a suggested product.

If HP, Dell, or whoever, uses any GPL'd code in their software...then yes they are required to release that software under the same license. Same goes for Open Hardware. Motherboards are typically based on a reference design provided by the chipset manufacturer, not an open source design.

Now, I believe you're right that there is technically nothing wrong with running the Smootheware firmware on a non open-source board...but these two halves of the Smoothie/SBASE "package" are based on completely different philosophies which are not at all compatible. Smoothieware is Open Source...the Smoothieware developers obviously have intimate knowledge of both the software and the hardware required to make it work correctly. Makerbase is closed source and instead of co-developing their board as a fork of the Smoothieboard, they simply looked at the schematics, moved some stuff around, used different stepper controllers, and slapped their label on it. I doubt they have any knowledge of how Smoothieware works or what the hardware requirements are to function correctly, let alone support their customers when stuff doesn't work. Even worse, I doubt they even fully understand how the components themselves work! I took one look at my SBASE and noticed a ceramic resonator next to the Ethernet PHY and immediately knew that would be a problem, and I don't even do this for a living.

As far as my helping the manufacturer, I can't help they monitor this forum. And my support for Open Source is irreverent. I'm helping customers like myself who purchased a flawed product, and unless Makerbase complies with the Open Hardware license I have no interest in helping them directly.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2016 02:04PM by w3drk.

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flyway97
to Chri: i have reply you, thank you.

to karabas : [www.gzdydz.cn]

to w3drk : we change uC oscillator because it will be better for the lan, and not relate to lockup issues. the lockup issues maybe come from sd card problem. we have found MKS Sbase need better sd card then Mega2560's board.

Did you already fix it in your newest version? V1.4 ?

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karabas

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flyway97
to Chri: i have reply you, thank you.

to karabas : [www.gzdydz.cn]

to w3drk : we change uC oscillator because it will be better for the lan, and not relate to lockup issues. the lockup issues maybe come from sd card problem. we have found MKS Sbase need better sd card then Mega2560's board.

Did you already fix it in your newest version? V1.4 ?

1.3 and 1.4 are fakes.
Edit: to the Best of my knowledge. Tried to find info and "talked" to seller who couldn't speak a word of English.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2016 04:04PM by dintid.

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The MKS Base is at V1.4 afaik. But this is the AVR-Version not ARM. ARM ist MKS SBase.

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SO
Has anyone gotten hands on one of the sbase boards?

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gotswrv
SO
Has anyone gotten hands on one of the sbase boards?

Yes, this thread contains 11 pages of discussion about several user's experiences with the MKS-SBASE.

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w3drk

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gotswrv
SO
Has anyone gotten hands on one of the sbase boards?

Yes, this thread contains 11 pages of discussion about several user's experiences with the MKS-SBASE.

I hope he meant one of the new versions with the "fixes" else wow, lol.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Contact the seller before buying it, say that if this fix hasn't been applied you want a full refund.

Can someone give me a quick recap of the 11 pages? Is the SBASE board worth the money at the moment?

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tim3716
Can someone give me a quick recap of the 11 pages? Is the SBASE board worth the money at the moment?

Now that is just being damn lazy. TL;DR modern laziness.

Here is your answer....NO! Absolutely not unless you know for 100% fact you will get the version with their fix but even then do not expect any help from the open source community if you have any issues because this product is not a fully open sourced piece of hardware so if they can turn their backs on the OS community they get it back in return. If you don't care just realize you might and if you end up with the non "fixed version" you are SOL!

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

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Dark Alchemist

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tim3716
Can someone give me a quick recap of the 11 pages? Is the SBASE board worth the money at the moment?

Now that is just being damn lazy. TL;DR modern laziness.

Here is your answer....NO! Absolutely not unless you know for 100% fact you will get the version with their fix but even then do not expect any help from the open source community if you have any issues because this product is not a fully open sourced piece of hardware so if they can turn their backs on the OS community they get it back in return. If you don't care just realize you might and if you end up with the non "fixed version" you are SOL!

Please don't speak for the open source community.

I'm glad to help anyone and even the smoothieboard guys are ready to answer smoothieware related problems.
-Olaf

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o_lampe

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Dark Alchemist

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tim3716
Can someone give me a quick recap of the 11 pages? Is the SBASE board worth the money at the moment?

Now that is just being damn lazy. TL;DR modern laziness.

Here is your answer....NO! Absolutely not unless you know for 100% fact you will get the version with their fix but even then do not expect any help from the open source community if you have any issues because this product is not a fully open sourced piece of hardware so if they can turn their backs on the OS community they get it back in return. If you don't care just realize you might and if you end up with the non "fixed version" you are SOL!

Please don't speak for the open source community.

I'm glad to help anyone and even the smoothieboard guys are ready to answer smoothieware related problems.
-Olaf

Well, my personal position on this ( and everybody in the community has their own ), is that answering support request for a closed-source board running our open-source firmware is going to go like this : 
1. Is the answer super super simple ? If yes, just answer.
2. If the answer is not super simple, and is likely to take a bit of time to figure out, then tell the person with the problem that they should probably contact the seller before asking the community.
3. If the person with the problem asks again ( maybe the seller didn't answer, maybe they didn't ask ), help with the problem.

That's not as simple as what would happen with a Smoothieboard, but people do get help ultimately.

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o_lampe

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Dark Alchemist

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tim3716
Can someone give me a quick recap of the 11 pages? Is the SBASE board worth the money at the moment?

Now that is just being damn lazy. TL;DR modern laziness.

Here is your answer....NO! Absolutely not unless you know for 100% fact you will get the version with their fix but even then do not expect any help from the open source community if you have any issues because this product is not a fully open sourced piece of hardware so if they can turn their backs on the OS community they get it back in return. If you don't care just realize you might and if you end up with the non "fixed version" you are SOL!

Please don't speak for the open source community.

I'm glad to help anyone and even the smoothieboard guys are ready to answer smoothieware related problems.
-Olaf

I can tell you what I was told (just scroll back) and I will repeat it. If you want to be a sexual slave to a closed source product and whore out your willingness to help (admirable but ill placed) for a closed source product that only takes and does give back then you need your head examined. As far as most people they will tell him to Peter off and/or go buy the real deal that does help that which they took from.

I, myself, consider anything that takes from the open source community but doesn't give back to it in the way of having a fully (complete) open source product a thief. I know most people feel the same way about it (at least that is the vibe I got when I asked but you can see above) and if you don't then you are just as guilty of hurting the open source community as the actual thieves are.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 09:01AM by Dark Alchemist.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

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arthurwolf
Well, my personal position on this ( and everybody in the community has their own ), is that answering support request for a closed-source board running our open-source firmware is going to go like this : 
1. Is the answer super super simple ? If yes, just answer.
2. If the answer is not super simple, and is likely to take a bit of time to figure out, then tell the person with the problem that they should probably contact the seller before asking the community.
3. If the person with the problem asks again ( maybe the seller didn't answer, maybe they didn't ask ), help with the problem.

That's not as simple as what would happen with a Smoothieboard, but people do get help ultimately.

Well, not exactly what happened to me incognito as #1 yes. #2 Yes but tell the person to get a real Smoothieboard. #3 If the same people are around you either get silence or you get them telling you to get a real Smoothieboard, or Azteeg that gives back to the OS community then they will help you. Others mileage may vary.

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I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

For the hundredth time : you claim to having been mistreated, but won't give me an exact nick and date. I have logs of all the channels, I can find the conversation, and we can see if you were mistreated or not.

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tim3716
Can someone give me a quick recap of the 11 pages? Is the SBASE board worth the money at the moment?

Yes. Just get it from the primary maker of it; Maker Base
Milage might vary of course. Lots of people help, even if some view them as "leeches", but others don't want to help persons who happens to buy a copy.

I believe in Open Source, and I absolutely believe the Chinese (and others) should get real open source, but they just do not grasp that concept. We can't fault them for not having the same concept of this. At least Makers Base tries to help and give back what they can.
I have seen chinese firms put software on github to helpe people modify/customize it.. that is friendly, yes? They even put a crack for the software up as well... is that also friendly, or maybe misguided? What I'm saying is, that many actually do try to act as "The western World", but there are just so many differences in cultural and economical behaviour.

In reality people demand something from the Chinese manufacturers, which they actually believe they are allready doing since they have put stuff on Github. Antagonizing them by calling them names is not going to further the goals of being truely open source...

On the other hand, I don't think I have EVER seen a chinese manufacturer, reseller, or other non-ingame-person harass anyone, or participate in name calling.. as many do here!!

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