smoothie vs duet vs?

Hello. I am making like 8th printer, and have decidet to buy decent motherboard. Until now i used only ramps.
Money is not a issue, i can buy any board.
what i want:
Ethernet, digital trimpots/microstep settings, 5 motor controllers,working on 24V web interface and good support.

I am few years on marlin/repetier and i am little affraight to change.
smoothie looks easy to setup everything on single file, duet firmware looks like mess...

any other boards that i am missing(europe)?
Not interested in chinese replicas.

any suggestions and comments are welcome.

printer is lasercut steel frame with some modified mendelmax xz axis(10 mm rods) and 300 x 200 heated bed with ý axis on 10 mm rods.
thanks!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2015 04:29PM by woo.

... I'm using RADDS with Marlin4Due - [reprap.org]

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

I like the Duet because it has the better web interface. It doesn't have variable microstepping, it's fixed at 16x, but I can't think of any reason why you would want to use less. The basic board only has 4 drivers on board, so you need to add either the DueX4 or the Duet shield to get more.

Smoothieboard costs more than Duet, however you can get a 5-driver Smoothieboard, which probably makes it cheaper if you want exactly 5 drivers.

Duet firmware configuration is done in the config.g file on the SD card, which is read when the board starts up. So you never need to rebuild the firmware. Smoothieware likewise reads a configuration file at startup.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
dc42
I like the Duet because it has the better web interface. It doesn't have variable microstepping, it's fixed at 16x, but I can't think of any reason why you would want to use less. The basic board only has 4 drivers on board, so you need to add either the DueX4 or the Duet shield to get more.

Smoothieboard costs more than Duet, however you can get a 5-driver Smoothieboard, which probably makes it cheaper if you want exactly 5 drivers.

Duet firmware configuration is done in the config.g file on the SD card, which is read when the board starts up. So you never need to rebuild the firmware. Smoothieware likewise reads a configuration file at startup.

thank you, i missed that part with config file on reprap firmware. I checked it, looks easier now.
I planned single ext for now. I need to check your branch. Any big differences?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2015 05:25PM by woo.

I am a fan of the Smoothieware ecosystem, and believe that a Smoothieboard 5xc meets every criteria on your list.

As dc42 pointed out, the web interface is pretty basic in Smoothieware. On the other hand, the telnet interface is pretty useful for sending G-codes to the printer. There's also instructions on the Smoothie web site telling you how to use the telnet interface as a serial port from Pronterface as if you were connected via USB.

Speaking of USB, Smoothieware has a neat trick where it presents the on-board SD card as a removable drive over the USB interface. You can drag/drop files from your PC straight into the printer! My use of Pronterface these days is only to send "@play /sd/somefile.gcode" commands to kick off an SD card print.....

I have the RRD Graphic LCD on my smoothieboard and use the SD card in the LCD panel for printing. I do not use host software or a computer to run the printer for reliability reasons, though it can be handy when tuning and calibrating the printer.

I replaced factory electronics from a commercial machine and chose Duet+X4 (and PanelDUE) to run>
3 extruders/hot ends
1 nema23 for Z
2 nema17 for y
1 nema17 for x
and
A relay for a 110v chamber heater(plugged in the 'bed' pins).

I *HATE* WiFi so the ethernet port is awesome supports dhcp and dns (can connect using printer name in browser instead of ip address... personally I don't use it, I just have a static ip and a bookmark)

I have compiled firmware for giggles, but mostly just flash the *.bin files directly from the web and change the config.g file on the sd card from ormerod defaults to my setup.

DC42 has said he is or is planning on adding code to use hotend pins to run other heaters (like bed and chamber at the same time).
I've also heard DC42's fork has better automatic probe/bed tramming and motion control than the main fork. which they're likely to incorporate if it is working out better. (I don't follow the subject that closely as I use end stops)

ZPL- webinterface is super easy and is my primary printer connection/control (including file/cfg upload/delete/start prints).

The only problem I can directly attribute to the Duet/webcontrol is the config.g update gets hosed every once in a while during upload and I need to pull the SD card to copy the files directly(machine won't do anything if config.g isn't loaded) but this is my first/only printer and I've messed with the config.g ... a lot...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2015 11:50PM by Epop.

Has any firmware any flaws when compared to marlin/repetier?
Can anyone screenshot web interface from smoothie? I like duet, but with screw terminals from TP3D...
I assume duet's interface is same as in Adrians video when introduced Ormerod?

Affer all, i will work thru it so it is nice to see how il looks.
i assume neither hat web cam option on board?

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woo
I assume duet's interface is same as in Adrians video when introduced Ormerod?

No, it has changed completely twice since then. Here are shots of 2 of the 7 tabs on the current one.

Quote

i assume neither hat web cam option on board?

That's correct.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

thank you!
after some tinkering for now i am little on duet side because some lower price.
il wait few more days to explore more and then buy something.

in speed and power comparission i expect approx. same output from stepper drivers, or am i wrong?

few questions about duet:

On-board 5V switching regulator
This produces too much EMI to meet CE regulations in a typical complete printer. If the EMI produced by the switching regulator is unacceptable, leave it disabled (by leaving JP9 open) and provide 5V power via the external 5V connector instead.
how big are those EMI, will i have problems with it?

about config file, i looked at it and few things are missing, so i assume that not all setup informations are in that file, for example:
temperature settings, homing routine, machine dimensions, etc(if i am looking right files on github.) but that is ok, i still need do some research

i really like that web interface.


i looked toms review of smoothieboard. and review is cool, except that he actually did not test board at that time, just read internet posts like i have.
So i dont think that review waz honest like he said. there are really little or no tutorials/reviews for those boards....

btw thank you for help.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2015 04:57AM by woo.

Quote
woo
in speed and power comparission i expect approx. same output from stepper drivers, or am i wrong?

Both use A4982 drivers on a 4-layer PCB, so the maximum output current should be similar.

Quote
woo
how big are those EMI, will i have problems with it?

All Ormerod 1 printers (and quite a few others) use the switching regulator, but I've never heard of anyone having problems with the EMI. I just tried putting a radio next to my Ormerod 1, with the antenna about 20cm from the Duet. When I tune it to a very weak FM station that already has a lot of background noise, I can hear the switching regulator when I turn the Ormerod on. When I tune the radio to a stronger FM station or a DAB station, I can't hear it at all.

Quote
woo
about config file, i looked at it and few things are missing, so i assume that not all setup informations are in that file, for example:
temperature settings, homing routine, machine dimensions, etc(if i am looking right files on github.) but that is ok, i still need do some research

Temperature setting is done by your slicing program. Thermistor selection is set in config.g, in the M305 command. Machine dimensions are set in the M208 command. The homing files are separate, there are homex.g, homey.g, homez.g and homeall.g for a Cartesian printer, and homedelta.g for a delta printer.

Quote
woo
i really like that web interface.

So do I! Once you have used it, you will never want to go back to using a USB-based host program.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

dc42:



I am thinking about min, and max temperature definitions for bed and nozzle, etc.
so there is +1 for smoothie, i just look at smoothies config file, there are all definitions in one file..

Quote
woo
Can anyone screenshot web interface from smoothie?

This example shot is from the Smoothieware web site:



Smoothie's web page looks somewhat like an embedded Pronterface, although I doubt they share actual code. I believe that they are near the hardware limits in terms of binary size, so I would not base my decision on a hope that they will be making significant improvements to the web interface over time.

Another annoyance with Smoothie's network interface is that they did not implement common file transfer interface like FTP or SCP. The only file upload options are SIMPLE file transfer protocol (not to be confused with SFTP/Secure FTP) and Plan9. Neither were ever popular on the Internet, and the only reason that I can think of for implementing them and not FTP/SSH/Samba is that these were the only programs that would fit into the available binary space.

If you use something like a USB-connected Raspberry Pi, the built-in ethernet port's limitations are irrelevant.....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2015 07:47AM by vreihen.

thats bad..

what is quality of replikeo duet board?

i just ordered pi 2, but trying to avoid too much stuff..

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2015 08:18AM by woo.

How do you guys use/plan to use the networking with a printer?

I ask because I can't figure out any scenario in which it would be useful unless you've you a bunch of machines on a network and you want to control them from a central point. Am I missing something, or is networking one of those things that people do so they can say they can do it but has little practical value?

You have to be at the machine to change filament, clean the bed, level the bed (most machines), remove the last print, etc. It seems to me that until you can do all that via the network, you may as well just plug in an SD card and hit "go".

If i got it right, my plan is to connect it to router and then acess it via multiple devices. Also it will be much easier to atom pc to run it.
i also have one more printer. So if that works ok i can control multiple printers via web browser.
Actually i can live without it but i want it, like to try something new.

Quote
the_digital_dentist
How do you guys use/plan to use the networking with a printer?

I ask because I can't figure out any scenario in which it would be useful unless you've you a bunch of machines on a network and you want to control them from a central point. Am I missing something, or is networking one of those things that people do so they can say they can do it but has little practical value?

You have to be at the machine to change filament, clean the bed, level the bed (most machines), remove the last print, etc. It seems to me that until you can do all that via the network, you may as well just plug in an SD card and hit "go".

I use the Duet web interface for a number of reasons:

1. It it much nicer to use than Pronterface (the only USB host program I have used).

2. It provides real time display of all the important parameters, e.g. temperatures, positions, layers printed, time to finish print, filament consumed.

3. I have 2 printers in 2 different rooms. One of them has a PC next to it. The second one doesn't have a PC anywhere near it. It has an LCD control panel and is hooked into my WiFi. I do simple things with it using the LCD control panel, and more complicated things on the web interface using my smartphone, because the LCD panel doesn't yet provide the facility to enter general gcodes. I upload gcode files to it remotely from the PC in the other room.

4. Quite often I am relaxing in one part of the house or the garden while I have a print in progress somewhere else. I use my smartphone to keep an eye on the progress and to know when it has finished.

I have to be at the machine to clean the bed before starting a print, and I like to watch it while the first layer does down. But after than, being able to monitor the progress remotely is useful.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Thats it. And i have one large beast that sits in workshop...

So if its ok he will get also 32 bit motherboard, so that i can acess it with tablet etc

Quote
dc42
4. Quite often I am relaxing in one part of the house or the garden while I have a print in progress somewhere else. I use my smartphone to keep an eye on the progress and to know when it has finished.

I have to be at the machine to clean the bed before starting a print, and I like to watch it while the first layer does down. But after than, being able to monitor the progress remotely is useful.

But with the Webinterface you can only see when it is finished. You don't see If it is still printing ok or making a spagetti mess. So I would think it is important to also have a Web Cam for these kinds or remote checks, right?

Quote
JustAnotherOne

Quote
dc42
4. Quite often I am relaxing in one part of the house or the garden while I have a print in progress somewhere else. I use my smartphone to keep an eye on the progress and to know when it has finished.

I have to be at the machine to clean the bed before starting a print, and I like to watch it while the first layer does down. But after than, being able to monitor the progress remotely is useful.

But with the Webinterface you can only see when it is finished. You don't see If it is still printing ok or making a spagetti mess. So I would think it is important to also have a Web Cam for these kinds or remote checks, right?

From the web interface, I can see that the head is still moving, how far it has got and approximately how long it has to go. It would be nice to have a webcam so that I can see it is still extruding properly, but my printers are both sufficiently reliable that once a couple of layers have completed successfully, there is a high probability that the print will be successful. With long prints, I usually inspect them every couple of hours just to make sure.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
the_digital_dentist
How do you guys use/plan to use the networking with a printer?

I print from SD card. Both of my printers have RRD GLCD adapters, but I still prefer to use Pronterface for jogging the carriages and stuff pre-print.

I am also probably in the minority in that I do NOT slice with temperature control, preferring to set it manually so that I can tweak it by hand for a specific job. That means that I need to use either the GLCD or Pronterface to set the temperatures, and then send an "@play /sd/somefile.gcode" (Pronterface needs the @ for some reason) because it is quicker than the SD card menus for me.

Transferring files to SD card is my biggest task, since my printer is not connected to a computer via USB most of the time. That's why I wish that there was a more popular network file access protocol included in Smoothieware, so that I wouldn't have to sneakernet the SD card between my slicing computer and printer.

I'm really not a fan of printing over USB, which is what MatterControl, Repetier, Pronterface, and other host programs were intended to do.....

I can see the utility in being able to monitor progress, and to shut down the machine if a print comes off the bed, but the rest doesn't seem very useful to me. A cheap, networked web cam can monitor the print.

The slicer tells me how long the print will take and how much filament is required so I know approximately when a print will finish before I start it up. In the meantime, my watch tells me all I need to know about print progress. If I have any doubt about the amount of filament on the spool I weigh it before I start the print, so I never run out mid print.

I don't know why I'd want to send gcodes to the printer remotely. Experience has taught me not to trust host software/USB to control the machine, so why would I trust a network connection?

Displaying coordinates, temperatures, filament consumed is nice, but what's the value?

Meh.

Can we stick to the topic. Its about 32 bit boards. Thanks!

Quote
woo
what is quality of replikeo duet board?

I haven't had a Duet from Replikeo, so I can only go on what I have read on these forums. It seems to be variable:

- Some of the early boards they shipped had the USB connector mounting lugs not soldered properly (they know they need to check this now). This was not a problem for those who know to check for this, but at least one user who was not aware of the potential issue ended up breaking the USB connector off. Replikeo sent him a replacement board, but it turned out to have a diode missing, so it doesn't work when supplied with USB power alone.

- Another user who bought a board from Replikeo reported that it was all working for him.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
vreihen
Another annoyance with Smoothie's network interface is that they did not implement common file transfer interface like FTP or SCP. The only file upload options are SIMPLE file transfer protocol (not to be confused with SFTP/Secure FTP) and Plan9. Neither were ever popular on the Internet, and the only reason that I can think of for implementing them and not FTP/SSH/Samba is that these were the only programs that would fit into the available binary space.

The Duet supports FTP access (not the secure version), but the usual way to upload files is by HTTP via the web interface. The sustained speed for uploading a file to the SD card via the web interface seems to be a little over 170kbytes/sec. The card interface is SDHC, so it doesn't have the speed limitation that Smoothie seems to have when uploading to SD card from the web interface.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
woo
Can we stick to the topic. Its about 32 bit boards. Thanks!

I did not want to go off topic. But I Dont think that a 32bit Board should have a Ethernet. A web cam is not possible with these boards and the transfer speed and features of the Web interface are limited due to the limited processing power.

If we conclude that the real requirement is a Web Cam and fast G-Code upload then I would recommend a RasPi with RasPiCam and Octoprint. The printer would then also need a second board for Heaters, Steppers,... For fast Delta movements a Board with ARM Cortex would be the thing to use. With no special requirements also a AVR based board might be good enougth. (Alternatively go with BBB and Repetier Server, and an USB Web Cam)

This solution would have a better Web interface (including Web Cam) and have more performence when uploading Files. It would still fullfuill all the here meantioned use cases.

If there is no real reason to include the Etnerhet port to the Controller board then this limits the options one has,..

I just try to be helpfull.

Disclaimer: I'm currently developing an ARM Board that does not have Ethernet. The board is far from finished, so I don't want to sell it to you, at least not now,...

Hey, good to know! I think that simple opensource board like gen 7 would be great!
And if there vere toshiba tb6600 it would be a beast!

About ethernet..well i think that is good to have option...you can use it but if you prefer usb also ok.
it is good to have multiple choices.

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JustAnotherOne
I did not want to go off topic. But I Dont think that a 32bit Board should have a Ethernet. A web cam is not possible with these boards and the transfer speed and features of the Web interface are limited due to the limited processing power.

I disagree strongly. The Duet web interface provides fantastic functionality. Upload speed is in excess of 170kbytes/sec, which I find adequate. The fact that the web server is integrated into the firmware allows it to be highly responsive and return real-time data; whereas Octoprint is limited by the serial nature of the USB interface and the limited status information available via gcodes. The only reason I would add a RPi or similar is if I felt that a webcam was essential, which for me it isn't.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

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dc42

Quote
JustAnotherOne
I did not want to go off topic. But I Dont think that a 32bit Board should have a Ethernet. A web cam is not possible with these boards and the transfer speed and features of the Web interface are limited due to the limited processing power.

I disagree strongly. The Duet web interface provides fantastic functionality. Upload speed is in excess of 170kbytes/sec, which I find adequate.

So for a normal g-Code file of 9MB that would be one minute and 10 Seconds at 127kb/s. Or about 8 seconds per MB. I don't think that that is adequate.

But we can agree to disagree here. So whoever wants to wait a minute to transfere a normal file to his printer and even longer for big files can go with Ethernet on an 32bit ARM Cortex based controller board.

Who thinks that that is too slow and / or wants to also have a Web cam should add a RasPi or BBB or another 32bit ARM A* based Board.

@woo: for my board see here : [forums.reprap.org]

Very nice specs.

But if i knew how that stuff works i would make board that can use some mainstream firmware, In this case smoothie or RRFW. Then you have 50% job done before started.