First Printer, 225mm^3 printer / mill combo build

How is it going do you have any more prints made. The one I'm building is taken a lot more time that I thought

Here are some pics, as requested. Do you have any pics of your new machine coming together? Did you make a thread on it?

I'm still working out details and quality/temperature/flow issues, but I'm pretty happy so far. You can see on Yoda's ears that the flow died out a bit on me, I'm not sure what that is about yet. I think maybe my extruder gears are a bit out of round so the velocity of the extrusion varies a bit.. .maybe. I have more gears to try, just not enough time in the day. I've been working on my car a lot too.

(camera phone, sorry it is a bit blurry):


(1 coat of green paint):


I finished both parts of the new cooling setup with parts on thingiverse, but I need to modify them a bit. Pics of that will be up in another post.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2014 03:59PM by Tired2.

So, I'm having jamming problems with my bowden tube.

It seems that if I clamp the hobbed bolt setup down tight enough, it makes the filament too oblong to slide through the 4mm OD 2mm ID PTFE tube. It slides smooth right off the spool, but then is tight after the length of filament is extruded.

I have a plan though... I looked up the standard equivalent, and it seems like good news. The 5/32" OD tube had a 3/32" ID, which is 2.38mm instead of 2mm. The OD is close enough were I think it will work in my 4mm push lock fittings.

Here is a graphic to illustrate, the middle is 1.75mm nominal filament.



Anyway, I have some in the mail from mcmaster. Hopefully it will solve my issue.

If you're having trouble with the 2 mm Teflon tube then you might have trouble as it goes into the extruder heatsink I think it's only 2 mm or less there. Other people are managing to do it so I would just start asking maybe a different drive wheel

Did you try loosening the tension on the filament? (Hobbed bolt). The filament should not be getting that distorted.

I don't run a Bowden, just assuming the filament tension is similar to a non-bowden extruder.

---

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HUGE 3D PRINTER PARTS SALE!!!

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gmh39
Did you try loosening the tension on the filament? (Hobbed bolt). The filament should not be getting that distorted.

I don't run a Bowden, just assuming the filament tension is similar to a non-bowden extruder.

The New baby has arrived! Just a few days early... hence my lack of progress.

The new tube should be at work waiting on me, I'll get it tomorrow and hopefully carve out a few hours to test it.

I have tried loosening the hobbed bolt, but then it slips still. The problem could justs be out of spec filament, so I'll try to measure it more when this happens.

I hope the bigger tube relives a bit of friction and I can find that sweet spot.

Just want to check in how is it going I know you must be busy

So, the jamming persists, and I don't have that much time right now. The tube did not help, the extra space in there just let the filament accordion more as friction in the hot end goes up until it just can't push anymore without the filament buckling in the extruder or the extruder slipping.

I did take some filament impressions of the hot end, and re-did the "hot" tightening process with a bit more torque this time. I've read a lot of other posts about people with E3D hot ends jamming on PLA

I've yet to contact the company.

I fought what I thought was a bed adhesion issue for a few hours a couple nights back, but I think the reality is that it was not getting full extrusion volume, so it would peel up.

I took some impressions before and after the re-tightening process, here they are:

Before:


After:


It is not jamming as quickly, but it still does.

I have to run it at 210C just to get it to really flow. Hotter than that does not seem to help really. Down around 185, it jams immediately. Of course, this is 'indicated' temp, not actual temp.

I've read about 'seasoning' the hot end with oil, but I think that seems to only be a temporary fix. I've also seen people polish it, which I guess I can try.

I've also read briefly about people modifying the nozzle slightly, but I'm not so sure on this one either. I should probably contact E3D.

Here is the troubleshooting post I was referring to:
[forum.e3d-online.com]

Maybe I'll go over there and do more research, but time has been my biggest problem recently.

Oh, I actually did make some progress.

Misumi's new contest is giving away a $200 VISA gift card to the winner of a "what you built with the First150 promo" thing. I tidied up my printer's wiring a bit and cleaned off my desk. Below is my entry photo.

You'll notice I got the Extruder raised up enough to mount the spools. For now they are just on a peice of All-thread rod with a T-Nut on the end. T-Nut bottoms out, they stay. It works well actually because I can translate them in the X axis for different diameter spools, and I can handle multiple spool widths as well.

OH! And the lighting. I used some scrap LED light bars out of a broken LED garage lighting fixture. The size was just about right for the 40mm extrusion. I used heat sink compound on it, so the gantry is the heat sink for the LED stips. You can barely make them out in the pic, but they flood the hell out of the bed with nice white light. They run on 24vdc and pull about 25W. I'll show them in a youtube video at some point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2014 11:06AM by Tired2.

I have not put plastic through the E 3-D hot end yet that stuff you pull from you hot end looks a little strange to me. Can't make it out but I you sure the barrel and the nozzle line up perfectly size and bore wise. You might just have some bad plastic to E 3-D nozzles are diameter specific different for 1.75 and 3mm and obviously the stainless barrel also hopefully you don't have a mismatch

They are a bit confusing. You can see a problem in the top photo, but it is gone in the bottom photo. The right side of the 'hour glass' shape is the transition from heat sink to heat break tube I think. Here is a drawing:

[files.e3d-online.com]

I ordered my whole setup from E3D (Really filastruder here in the US) all as one kit, so unless they mis-kitted something it should all be good.

In the top photo of the two, you can see where the little 0.4mm nub comes out of the nozzle. The middle part of the hour glass shape tends to stretch I think as it heats up.

(The procedure to do this is to heat the end, put pressure on the plastic and turn off the heater, keep pressure on to 100C, then turn it back on while pulling up on the filament. It pops out with a mice impression.

Those are 1080p pics, so you can enlarge them from the preview if it helps. I'm limited in what equipment I have though to shoot macro.

Do you still have the standard hot and cooling fan and mount their was an article a while back where the man said you couldn't even put it to the lowest position on the fins and had to be up top past the top large cooling fins might be something to do with cooling

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2014 03:18PM by cnc dick.

This is the second extruder I made this way it is pretty much impossible to chew the filament and I have never had it slip the filament. In my opinion the main problem with the extruders that are out there is the size of the drive wheel I've been trying to get this across for about a year now they're all too small of a diameter the ones I use are drive wheels from a mig welder there are over 1 inch in diameter so you need a lot of gear reduction I use 100 to 1 gear motor. With the filament pressed into the drive wheel on the centerline under its normal pinch wheel tension I have teeth above and below that are pressed into the filament this is because of the larger radius. And I've made the housing so there is no room for the filament to buckle it has a incredible amount of pull or push whichever way you want look at it. If you build one like this I guarantee you'll have enough push

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2014 11:43AM by cnc dick.

Hey, thanks for keeping up with my thread. That extruder is a nice piece of work!

I think I've narrowed my problem to one or two things... hopefully I'll know which it is soon enough.

So, I've read that the 0.4 nozzle is not ideal for PLA. I don't fully believe this. I went ahead and ordered a 0.6mm and hoped it would solve my problems. Things went better but still jammed up eventually. So, I imagine this is not my problem.

I also read that the 0.4mm nozzles from E3D have too long of a bore on them, it should be about 0.5mm but it is 1.0mm or so. I got an extra 0.4mm and drilled it down to about 0.4mm bore depth (the part that is 0.4mm dia is now only that deep). You can see in my pics above how long that little end nipple is... now it is shorter on one of my nozzles. I have not tried it yet... I'm not super hopeful on that one.

I was buying some more filament from a local supplier that just popped up... lonestartfilament.com They have a 19.99 special for 1KG, but shipping is about $10, so it is about comparable. Ike over there suggests 235C for extrusion with his PLA, which looks identical to the Monoprice stuff I'm using.

I always though 210C was well over the 185C I've read you should be using with PLA. Maybe, just maybe I got that wrong, or this particular PLA just likes it hotter. So, I'm hopeful that I'm just jamming because I'm too close to the melting point and it just won't push out. Soon I'll try at 235C and report back.

What do you run PLA at usually CNC_Dick?

Also, I am a top 10 finalist in the Misumi "Build Brag Win" Contest, so anyone following this thread, help me out and "like" my entry, and comment if you have time.

Thanks! https://www.facebook.com/misumi.usa/photos/a.662055447175361.1073741829.188641267850117/662055483842024/?type=1&permPage=1

New youtube Videos coming soon.

I don't usually run PLA I have in the past on my large printer but 235 sounds awful high for PLA I print ABS at 242 to 245

CNC_Dick,

Do you have plans for that extruder? CAD or anything?

I've failed one print tonight so far.... I thought it was the E3D jamming, but I was able to hand-push some filament through right after with no problem...

The extruder had buckling inside it, though that is not the problem, it happens after the hobbed bolt, which I can tell is getting good traction. I agree they should be larger and wrap around like yours does. I was toying with the idea of trying other mechanisms as well, but who knows if I ever will. The wades geared seems pretty good to me for a printed cheapy.

So, I found again that the tubing seemed very tight, that was with the 2mm ID PTFE bowden setup.

I'm now back on the 5/32" tubing, and I'm 26/69 layers into my print. I could of course be dealing with filament tolerance issues as well and not really realize it. I have another spool on the way though, so I'll try that as soon as possible.

Quality seems good at 235C, some stringing, but that was there at 210C.

A photo to keep this thread interesting:



Did I mention that Blue tape works MILES better than green Frog tape? I figured the only difference was the adhesive side, but I guess not! Thanks to some kind Youtuber for giving me a head's up. (Maybe someone here suggested changing and I ignored the advice?)

What I would do if I were you is just look on eBay for mig welder drive wheels they're all little bit different so find the one that you like with serrations are granted it's going to be for a wire size that is smaller than the filament but that's okay because the corners of the v groove dig into the filament. Then built your housing and depending on diameter probably get a nema 17 year motor one hundred to one ratio. These are very hard so you going to have to work with adapters or the shaft to mount them if you click on this picture should be a link to a crappy video of it printing

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2014 11:38AM by cnc dick.

Congrats on making it into the top 10 finalist of the Misumi "Build Brag Win" Contest

Quote
Tired2
I also read that the 0.4mm nozzles from E3D have too long of a bore on them, it should be about 0.5mm but it is 1.0mm or so.

Got a link to where you read this.

On my 3mm bowden E3D, I have to run the fan all the time, and when a print is ended, make sure that I retract - I do it manually when I abort a print.

If either of those conditions is not met, I get jams, apparently due to heat soaking up past the heat brake and deforming the filament there.

My jam rate went way down once I did those two things.

Quote
A2
Congrats on making it into the top 10 finalist of the Misumi "Build Brag Win" Contest

Thanks! I lost though, second place, maybe third. The guy who won built a small electric scooter. Unfortunately the format of the contest turned into a facebook popularity contest which is far from my strong point. Most of my votes came from my wife's teacher friends anyway, which is kinda cheesy. I'm glad he won though, from what I can tell he is a young highscool or maybe college student who probably needs the money more than I do. My hobby budget is still low, but I do what I can.

Quote
A2

Got a link to where you read this.

The original thread is on e3d-online, and it sort of meanders about with manufacturing problems and seasoning of the hot end. Many people said they had success with the 'mhackney' solution.

Original: [forum.e3d-online.com]
Link with instructions: [forum.seemecnc.com]

Quote
powool
On my 3mm bowden E3D, I have to run the fan all the time, and when a print is ended, make sure that I retract - I do it manually when I abort a print.

Great idea, I'll add that to my "end code" so it auto-retracts after a print.

I noticed the 'teeth marks' in the filament also can catch a bit on my brass "push lock" fittings... I have a few extra, so I may experiment with boring those out a bit to reduce that.

I was able to run a few parts at 70mm/sec instead of 100mm/sec, so maybe I'm just trying to push it too hard. I always made fun of CNC speed queens in the DIY world, yet here I am trying to debug at full speed.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2014 12:26PM by Tired2.

Yeah that's really pretty fast not to say that you can't do it but probably something you don't want to do on every print. That would be something to use on hollow single wall thickness and still get a good print but as a rule I usually print with ABS which is a little slower and I stay between 50 and 80 mm a second it can go much faster but print quality suffers not from machine wobbles but how well the plastic welds to layer below. I've never seen a pro printer in person but I did see plenty of videos and I don't think they even print at 100 mm a second maybe 80 mm a second. If you can post a couple videos of it running we would all like to see it

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2014 02:37PM by cnc dick.

Quote
cnc dick
Yeah that's really pretty fast not to say that you can't do it but probably something you don't want to do on every print. That would be something to use on hollow single wall thickness and still get a good print but as a rule I usually print with ABS which is a little slower and I stay between 50 and 80 mm a second it can go much faster but print quality suffers not from machine wobbles but how well the plastic welds to layer below. I've never seen a pro printer in person but I did see plenty of videos and I don't think they even print at 100 mm a second maybe 80 mm a second. If you can post a couple videos of it running we would all like to see it

There is a bit of full speed motion at the start of this video I think:

[www.youtube.com]

That is my most recent one on the youtube build series. I have another one edited that I literally just need to put a description in for and hit "make public", that has a lot more printing in it. For the sake of the youtube channel I always time lapse most of the print, as watching prints gets pretty boring after about 10 seconds or so, especially since my machine moves the part... I need to spend some time to make better time-lapses by triggering photos from G-Code at opportune times, but I've yet to put in the time in to do it.

Hey Evan!

It´s me, Alex.
Contacted you via Youtube early in your build (kniefi).

I just registered on here so I can comment on things (have been reading for quite some time, but figured I was already registered at way too many forums).

What I saw from that last video seems like a lack of cooling the filament after being extruded.
You should definately get some sort of fan blowing at the PLA sideways.

Look at the Ultimaker 2 for example - it has two! fans more or less constantly blowing at the printed/extruded Plastic.
I saw one guy have just one of those two fans fail and the quiality went down a lot, so imagine how it would be without proper cooling.
Also 235° seems really really hot.
I would often print with 180-190 degrees, but of cours depending on speed also.
Plus I noticed on lower temperatures even with PLA it smeels significantly less ;-)

What layer-height are you printing at?

Be aware of the fact, that 0.2mm layer height at 100mm/s is like printing 0.1mm layer height at 200mm/s -> volume of extruded PLA vise I mean.

So when lowering layer height one can crank up the speed.

What are your values for Acceleration and Jerk?


Last point I want to make in this post is the tip of the nozzle pushing filament around - accounting for the bend-up-edges.

Saw one Guys slow-motion analysis on some Youtube Video, where it showed some macro video of the hotend extruding and the very tip of the nozzle with it`s sides pushing the filament (it adheres to some extend) around, thus causing those curled up edges!

In that video the guy greatly reduced this "problem" by sanding the tip of the nozzle very carefully on some fine sand-paper/grinder and in some later Videos it showed that his nozzle-tip would no longe catch on parts of the extruded filament.

hope this can help a little bit.
Still working on mine though and not much further then having a solid "cube" of 30mm extrusion - cannot decide which way to go - core_XY or regular way by adding some extrusion ;-)

anyways,
nice build Evan,
hope you still find the time to "play" with it and also find time for your baby.
Congrats on becoming a father by the way!!

best regards,
Alex

Hey! Thanks for joining in here for some fun. This thread usually leads my youtube series by a bit since editing takes so much time. This is the real deal, the videos are for people in the future, not as I get it worked out.

Quote
Alexander1984
What I saw from that last video seems like a lack of cooling the filament after being extruded.
You should definately get some sort of fan blowing at the PLA sideways.
Look at the Ultimaker 2 for example - it has two! fans more or less constantly blowing at the printed/extruded Plastic.
I saw one guy have just one of those two fans fail and the quiality went down a lot, so imagine how it would be without proper cooling.

I'm not sure if you are talking about Video 11 or ones before it. I think 11, which is the current newest, is where I was testing with a "part cooling" fan. I came to the same conclusion about dragging around PLA, but of course I had to try it. You can see at the end that one side of the block looks perfect, the side with the fan on it. The other side has the "horns" on the corners. It is a great example of what adding a fan like that can do for you.

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Alexander1984
Also 235° seems really really hot.

I agree. I'm back at 210C now. Bridging was bad at 235, but I was hoping it would help my jamming. It did not. Read above for some things I think will actually help with the jamming, hotter temps was just one idea that failed.

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Alexander1984
What layer-height are you printing at?

I'm at 0.2 right now, but I'm on the 0.6mm nozzle for now. I'll go to my modified 0.4mm nozzle someday soon, but since I have jammed with 0.6 I need to get it worked out first.

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Alexander1984
What are your values for Acceleration and Jerk?

I'm at:

#define DEFAULT_MAX_ACCELERATION      {9000,9000,100,10000}    // X, Y, Z, E maximum start speed for accelerated moves. E default values are good for skeinforge 40+, for older versions raise them a lot.
#define DEFAULT_ACCELERATION          3000    // X, Y, Z and E max acceleration in mm/s^2 for printing moves
#define DEFAULT_RETRACT_ACCELERATION  3000   // X, Y, Z and E max acceleration in mm/s^2 for retracts

#define DEFAULT_XYJERK                20.0    // (mm/sec)
#define DEFAULT_ZJERK                 0.4     // (mm/sec)
#define DEFAULT_EJERK                 5.0    // (mm/sec)

I can't recall if I raised up the Accel or not... I think I may have since the defaults were more suited for Nema17's @ 1A, and I'm on 23's @ 2.5A each.

FYI, I'm a vintage 1983 myself.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2014 04:59PM by Tired2.

Tks found more about the nozzle orifice land length in this thread: [forum.seemecnc.com]
He put the hot end in the freezer to help extract the filament intact from the nozzle orifice.

Quote
A2
Tks found more about the nozzle orifice land length in this thread: [forum.seemecnc.com]
He put the hot end in the freezer to help extract the filament intact from the nozzle orifice.

I linked it above as well, hope you caught that.

I did not need to freeze it to get the length out of it. Just heat it up with pressure on it, let it cool with pressure on the filament (manually pushing)... once it cools down, heat it again while pulling up a bit, and it'll pop out pretty soon.

You may have to try it a few times to get the little nipple of the nozzle on there.

I measured it with a drill bit down the bore with the Digital Readout on the mill, though that is not technically accurate until you've removed a bit of material to get the drill bit to seat. Let me know if you try this and it helps.

To measure the orifice land length you need to determine where a frustum described by a sphere is located on the taper using calipers, a small ball bearing, and a pin.

Measure the orifice diameter, and the ball diameter, and note the lead in angle to the orifice, (e.g. 118 degrees, 60 degrees, etc.).

Using a CAD program draw the internal geometry with the sphere tangent to the taper. Where the sphere contacts the taper (tangent) is the frustum.
Then measure the distance from the intersection of the orifice land, and taper to the top of the sphere, name this dimension (dim1).
Measure the length of the pin, and add it to dim1, and name this dimension (dim2).

Measure the over all length from the outside of the nozzle to the top of the pin, and name this dimension (dim3).
Subtract dim2 from dim3 to reveal the orifice land length.




Originally posted here:
[forums.reprap.org]

That is an excellent way to measure it, but what I don't know is how critical the orifice land length is, and what an appropriate value would be.

All I have to go off currently is that some forum user decided the stock E3D one was too long and needed to be shorter.