Perfect Build Surface For PLA?

Hi Guys

I thought I would share a discovery with you that I haven't seen documented elsewhere. I am a big fan of PLA but, as we all know, it's a bit of an effort to get it to stick well to the bed without heat. I have been trying various things and stumbled on this quite by accident. My Cherry Pi range of printers uses a 250mm diameter mirror as the bed but I ran out of them on a recent build that I wanted to auto calibrate. I had a piece of 6mm tinted acrylic sheet in the workshop so cut a 250mm diameter circle out of it. It worked fine for the calibration but on completion I wanted to print something. To protect the surface I stuck some kapton tape on it. The PLA at 220 degrees stuck like a dream but lifts off easily on completion of the print. I tried the same thing later with kapton on a mirror but that doesn't work at all well. I think the acrylic must retain some heat that helps with the initial stick whereas the cold mirror doesn't. Whatever the reason it just seems to work. Give it a try.

Andy

Plastic type materials do tend to not steal as much heat as glass does. Touching glass and plastic at the same temp, the glass usually feels colder. In my mind, this works like the surface heating when plastic is placed, but it cools rapidly and removes the stick. That's just all in my ignorant head, though. Makes sense to me. Might try plain plastic, maybe even print one from ABS/PA alloy.

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Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

There is a guy who goes to events at my hacker space who used acrylic all the time.
The problem is, it can sometimes stick too well, and then there's the times where the head hits and digs a track through it. Last I saw, he was back to using glass with a glue stick.

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sheepdog43
There is a guy who goes to events at my hacker space who used acrylic all the time.
The problem is, it can sometimes stick too well, and then there's the times where the head hits and digs a track through it. Last I saw, he was back to using glass with a glue stick.

I have tried acrylic only before too. I had the same issues. The process I describe is different in that the acrylic has kapton tape applied to it. It really does work extremely well!

It may print good, but to me, that's a lose/lose idea.A head crash or misalignment now not only thrashes the bed, but all that Kapton tape as well, it may be rare, but it does happen.

While covering a small bed with plexi and Kapton isn't costly, it's a different story on larger beds.
Blue tape, Elmers and hairspray are cheap and easily replaced if damaged.

Each to his his own then. I'll stick with this until something better comes along. I've never had a head crash and I have a roll of 200mm wide kapton with about another 25M on it. The biggest benefit i have found with this method is that I seem to be able to print again and again on the same tape.

The more I think about it, the more I think a lot of it depends on the printer you are using, cartesians are a lot less likely to head crash. While a delta sends the print head flying at high speed right towards the center of the bed, I doubt you would find many, if any, operational deltas that haven't crashed the head at least a few times.

In my case, both of my deltas are using the hot end as a probe for calibration and leveling, so my head is repeatedly touching the bed (not always gently). One is a large scale printer with an 18in (500mm) diameter bed, coating it with Kapton and plexi would get expensive knowing you are just going to pummel it with the head in various places.

I personally would think heated brushed stainless steel bed would work properly. If you can control either the room temperature or build a shroud around the bed or even better have a temperature controlled build chamber it should make the stainless ideal in those circumstances. I have seen where people were printing on stainless in such a manner, once the print is done they simply let it cool, the SS shrinks at a different rate than any plastic and causes the part to pop off the bed with no real fuss. I am going to experiment with my own printer at a later time with SS, the nice thing about it is you can use steel wool to polish it up if you happen to get crud on it.

It seems to me that thermal shock is the biggest problem people have with their printers.

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AndyCart
Each to his his own then. I'll stick with this until something better comes along. I've never had a head crash and I have a roll of 200mm wide kapton with about another 25M on it. The biggest benefit i have found with this method is that I seem to be able to print again and again on the same tape.

I have a small 170mm circle plexi bed that came with the printer and recently tried the Kapton tape also. I print only PLA, no heated bed and the Kapton is the best solution so far.
After some time when parts don't stick that well anymore I just clean it with aceton and it works great again(I suspect the fingerprints ).
At the beginning I crashed the head quite a lot, but not anymore. Turned the plexi around and am using the undamaged(yet) side.

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We are working with Gorilla Glass at the moment and it is working rather well. We do use a thin layer of elmers glue (glue stick) as a bonding agent to help the prints adhear. It works wonderfully.

I have some paper "application tape" from my vinyl cutting process that I lay down on either acrylic or glass. It has a porous enough surface to take the PLA quite nicely.

Search GreenStar Layflat Classic Transfer Tape for the stuff I use. Way cheaper than blue tape, and easy to remove from the bed for changing.

i have been experimenting with another material for the build surface.,. It is a vinyl sticker which has a texture like carbon fiber... The pla sticks great to in on a cold glass bed and comes out when the print cools down ..Also it leaves a nice carbon fiber texture on the base of the print.

I actually experimented with the same thing and got great results. But I've started using other filaments like ABS and ABS/PA alloy which require a hot, hot bed. It ended up pulling up the vinyl wrap and making permanent wrinkles, which, it still didn't remove warpage. I've got some heavier DI-NOC on the way that may hold up better, we'll see.

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Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

@MrDoctorDIV

did you try the vinyl on aluminum plate... The vinyl worked perfectly for me on a glass plate but strangely on a aluminum plate it just wont stick for more than 3 to 4 layers of print... Well back to blue painters tape i guess... or maybe vinyl on acrylic....

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Plastic type materials do tend to not steal as much heat as glass does.

For what it's worth, glass has a very poor thermal conductivity. The problem is that it's at much cooler temperature than the extrudate if it's not heated.

I've never had much luck without a heated build plate. I tried a lot of combinations and nothing is as rock solid as Garnier Fructis Extreme Hold on a heated (50º)bare glass bed. In fact, I print ABS on that combination now at 110ºC and it generally holds better than Kapton with ABS juice! The vinyl hairspray becomes whatwhat gooey when heated.

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ekaggrat
did you try the vinyl on aluminum plate... The vinyl worked perfectly for me on a glass plate but strangely on a aluminum plate it just wont stick for more than 3 to 4 layers of print... Well back to blue painters tape i guess... or maybe vinyl on acrylic....

Yeah, I've got an aluminum build plate. I ordered enough for bits and pieces for testing, and two whole bed coverages. I'll have to try a few different materials to put it on. Or different materials to put on it [clear coat, truck bed coating, etc]

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Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

i tried using kypton tape on 4mm cast acrylic ..It didnt stick at all. Next i brushed acetone on the kypton. The print stuck a little but curled up and came off mid print..

PEI has been a bulletproof print for me. PLA and ABS stick perfect.

@radair

what is PEI . And are u using a hotbed or not?

This is what I am using.

[www.amazon.com]

It will only work with a heated bed.

You don't add anything to it? What temps do you run at?
Also, what do you secure it with?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2014 09:34PM by MrDoctorDIV.

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Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

Only thing I do is wipe it down with Acetone between prints. I run PLA @ 55 and ABS @ 90. After a 10 - 15 degree drop then piece will release from the bed. I have it secured with 3M 468MP Tape. I have it on a Printrbot Simple and a Mini Kossel I just finished. Works great on both. I actually used the Simple to print all of the MK parts without a single failure or wrap on the PEI.

I'll definitely look into that option, thanks.

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Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

@radair

printing on a hot surface is a piece of cake.. getting it right on a cold bed is harder in my experience as i have no access to the blue painters tape... I have tried all sorts of white paper tapes with pva on them and without pva, but getting the first layer right is very tricky. On my mendelmax I have a heated bed with glass on it .. for pla i apply pva to it and it works like a charm on all kinds of parts .. and for abs i use the usual kypton tape with acetone on it...

I gave up on a cold bed fast. No matter what I tried there was always some level of lift. Either the Tape would lift from the bed or the part would lift from the tape. Even when I went to a heated bed I would have issues from time to time with kapton and acetone or ABS slurry on the kapton. The PEI made all of that go away. I really like the PEI for the ability to just set a temp, wipe and go. Same process for PLA and ABS. Just set a different temp. There are so many things to keep calibrated properly and other issues that creep up. Not having to worry about bed adhesion at all is just really nice.

I just swiped some .03 polycarb sheet that (pardon me) Stratasys uses on their large format FDM machines. I am using ABS in my Rostock right now and tried the blue tape. no dice. I saw one guy using aluminum foil?? is that brilliant or folly.

I like the "carbon fiber" look....it is strange to see in the pics because the print itself is almost carbon fiber in texture. reflection?

@frankenfrankenstuff

the texture is left by the vinyl sticker on the print surface

@Radair

i am able to source 2mm PEI sheet. I was just curious, is the PEI brittle? do i have to glue it to another surface or just use bull dog clips to hold it to the heated bed?
thanks

@ekaggrat

It is brittle. I would still tape/glue at that thickness mainly for the best thermal transfer.

Since CF vinyl seems to work nicely for a no-heat bed, has anyone tried a whole sheet of carbon fiber? If it works it would make your bed super light.

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He used a vinyl sticker, not real carbon fiber. That would be another test.

Rolls of shelf liner vinyl is cheap though....how about Formica? Or countertop laminate? Strong and flexible.