Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level

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Captain_Tim
2. What are the specs of the nema 17 motors used in this kit? For both the Extruder as well as the axis motors.

Axis Motors:


Extruder Motor:

Thanks Legrand. Much appreciated.

The 12V 0.4A axis motors are an extremely poor design choice. Whoever chose them can't have known what he was doing.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

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dc42
The 12V 0.4A axis motors are an extremely poor design choice. Whoever chose them can't have known what he was doing.

Are there better motors that are the same size? Would it be worth upgrading the current motors to new ones?

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Captain_Tim

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dc42
The 12V 0.4A axis motors are an extremely poor design choice. Whoever chose them can't have known what he was doing.

Are there better motors that are the same size? Would it be worth upgrading the current motors to new ones?

Yes and yes. The 12V 0.4A motors would need a supply of about 36V to achieve enough torque at higher speeds. Even a 24V supply would be a lot better, but the Folger (like all cheap kits) uses el-cheapo RAMPS electronics, which isn't 24V-capable.

Look for Nema 17 motors with a rated current of between 1.2 and 1.7A - this is what everyone else uses (except for really large printers with Nema 23 motors). The rated voltage will be in the region of 4V, which is a much better match for the drivers, especially with a supply voltage of only 12V. There are lots to choose from.

I now use 0.9deg/step motor for greater resolution and high incremental torque (so more precise positioning) as they cost only slightly more - but again, Arduino/RAMPS can't drive 0.9deg motors on a delta without being severely speed limited.

Assuming you already have the kit with those motors, my advice is to get your printer working as best as you can with the existing motors. When you reach the point at which the mechanics is working well and giving you good print quality but the speed you can achieve is too low, upgrade both the electronics and the motors.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

I hear a lot of people like the Duet board for a replacement/upgrade from the RAMPS, so eventually I'll get get one of those, whether its for this printer or a different one. My next machine will hopefully be a Core X/Y. Then I'll have an Hbot, Delta, and a Core X/Y. Thanks for the info on the motors though. It will help with the printers future. I believe Folger will be sending out the replacement motor for my currently dead one tomorrow, or sometime early next week. Then it's onto calibrations and upgrades.

So, I guess if you were looking at the Folger motors, you could get three of their extruder motors and use them for your axis motors.

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dc42

Assuming you already have the kit with those motors, my advice is to get your printer working as best as you can with the existing motors. When you reach the point at which the mechanics is working well and giving you good print quality but the speed you can achieve is too low, upgrade both the electronics and the motors.

Just curious, with all your upgrades - what is the regular speed of your prints (nozzle size, material)?

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Legrand
So, I guess if you were looking at the Folger motors, you could get three of their extruder motors and use them for your axis motors.

Yes, the Folger extruder motor looks like a good one to use for the towers too.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

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paul_delta

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dc42

Assuming you already have the kit with those motors, my advice is to get your printer working as best as you can with the existing motors. When you reach the point at which the mechanics is working well and giving you good print quality but the speed you can achieve is too low, upgrade both the electronics and the motors.

Just curious, with all your upgrades - what is the regular speed of your prints (nozzle size, material)?

Just to be clear, I didn't upgrade a Folger printer. I started with a Mini Kossel kit from T3P3 and rebuilt it as a larger Kossel. See the link in my signature for details. I have replaced almost all the parts now, not because there was much wrong with them, but because they weren't suitable for a larger printer. The stepper motors in the T3P3 Mini Kossel kit worked very well in the larger printer, but I wanted to try 0.9deg/step motors because I like pushing the leading edge.

With PLA, 0.4mm nozzle and 0.2mm layer height, I've been printing infill at up to 100mm/sec. The speed at which I can print good perimeters and get reasonable print quality has been lower because of play in the Traxxas joints. Travel moves are at 300mm/sec, although I was getting more than that before I switched to the 0.9deg/step motors. I am in the process of replacing the Traxxas joints with Igus joints, and I hope this will increase the speed/print quality product of my printer. Feel free to ask me whether it has in a few days time.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
dc42
With PLA, 0.4mm nozzle and 0.2mm layer height, I've been printing infill at up to 100mm/sec. The speed at which I can print good perimeters and get reasonable print quality has been lower because of play in the Traxxas joints. Travel moves are at 300mm/sec, although I was getting more than that before I switched to the 0.9deg/step motors. I am in the process of replacing the Traxxas joints with Igus joints, and I hope this will increase the speed/print quality product of my printer. Feel free to ask me whether it has in a few days time.

With PLA and stock FolgerTech setup I am able to print infills at 120mm/s. Honestly, I see no reason to upgrade stock motors. With aluminum corners as heatsinks and "stock" higher than data sheet current the print quality is the limit, not the speed that this printer is able to perform. From my point of view - this configuration is well balanced for money, especially with Repetier firmware.

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Captain_Tim
I hear a lot of people like the Duet board for a replacement/upgrade from the RAMPS, so eventually I'll get get one of those, whether its for this printer or a different one. My next machine will hopefully be a Core X/Y. Then I'll have an Hbot, Delta, and a Core X/Y. Thanks for the info on the motors though. It will help with the printers future. I believe Folger will be sending out the replacement motor for my currently dead one tomorrow, or sometime early next week. Then it's onto calibrations and upgrades.

I am a big fan of the Duet, although I am biased because I maintain a fork of RepRapFirmware for it. Where I think it scores particularly well are:

- It is the only board that by itself provides a good web interface, without having to add more electronics. Nearly all Duet users control their printers using the web interface, and upload files to the SD card through it.

- It runs RepRapFirmware, which is the only firmware that provides fast auto calibration of delta printers (I implemented it). Although there are now a couple of forks of Smoothieware that appear to have reasonable calibration algorithms too.

- [shameless plug] It supports the PanelDue colour touch screen interface, which is really nice if you want a control panel on your printer, See [forums.reprap.org] for some screenshots.[/shameless plug]. Although most Duet users don't have a control panel, because you can control a Duet from your tablet or smartphone through the web interface.

- It provides software control of the stepper motors currents (as do many other boards). No more twiddling pots.

Also a genuine UK-manufactured Duet 0.8.5 costs less than a Smoothieboard 5XC, which is the closest comparable board.

However, better electronics cannot compensate for poor mechanics, except to make the calibration easier. So I advise anyone thinking of upgrading their electronics to get the printer mechanics right first, unless for some reason you need new electronics anyway.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

PS: the weak place in this printer - cheap ball joints that start "playing" anter 2-3 hours of printing. I'm thinking about magnetic joints and probably this is all that I want to upgrade to improve quality of walls for high objects.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2015 02:25PM by paul_delta.

At this point in time, I'm not to concerned with the height of prints, although come spring, I want to make a wind turbine, so being able to print higher prints will be wanted. That is when I'll probably do a lot of upgrades to this machine. As long as it works better, and sooner, then the Two Up I got, it will see a lot more use.

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paul_delta

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Legrand
I recently printed out a calibration sample and the text was inverted. Is this an easy fix in the firmware? I tried inverting the x-axis, but after seeing the results, and thinking about it for a couple of seconds, I'm guessing that only works for Cartesian machines.

[github.com]

So it's been a while since I touched the printer because I don't have any filament (bought the wrong diameter - I wish someone at Folger had used their brains and not shipped 3mm filament with a machine that only prints 1.75mm...), and while I haven't received the correct filament yet, I decided to tinker some more and I applied the change recommended above (at Github) to flip my axis. I switched the wires from the X-axis motors and end stops to the Y-axis motors and end stops. Unfortunately now some things are acting weird.

Home works fine.
G0 Z0 works fine.
Test prints seem to look correct, but without filament it's impossible to really tell.

If I use the G29 command (I've leveled my bed manually, just doing this for "show") the subroutine doesn't seem to work properly anymore. The printer head moves down near the bed, but then it keeps stepping up looking for the bed instead of down. I have to reset the board at this point or the machine is completely wankered and it wants to move up when it's being commanded to move toward the bed.

Also, a couple of my motors are acting herky-jerky randomly. The movement isn't completely smooth across the entire range of the towers. I'm wondering if I'm starting to damage them by these "crashes". The belts look fine.

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Legrand

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paul_delta

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Legrand
I recently printed out a calibration sample and the text was inverted. Is this an easy fix in the firmware? I tried inverting the x-axis, but after seeing the results, and thinking about it for a couple of seconds, I'm guessing that only works for Cartesian machines.

[github.com]

So it's been a while since I touched the printer because I don't have any filament (bought the wrong diameter - I wish someone at Folger had used their brains and not shipped 3mm filament with a machine that only prints 1.75mm...), and while I haven't received the correct filament yet, I decided to tinker some more and I applied the change recommended above (at Github) to flip my axis. I switched the wires from the X-axis motors and end stops to the Y-axis motors and end stops. Unfortunately now some things are acting weird.

Home works fine.
G0 Z0 works fine.
Test prints seem to look correct, but without filament it's impossible to really tell.

If I use the G29 command (I've leveled my bed manually, just doing this for "show") the subroutine doesn't seem to work properly anymore. The printer head moves down near the bed, but then it keeps stepping up looking for the bed instead of down. I have to reset the board at this point or the machine is completely wankered and it wants to move up when it's being commanded to move toward the bed.

Also, a couple of my motors are acting herky-jerky randomly. The movement isn't completely smooth across the entire range of the towers. I'm wondering if I'm starting to damage them by these "crashes". The belts look fine.

Make sure that motor and endstops pairs are X-X, not X-Y. Do you use eeprom? If so, make sure to load default settings and save them back to eeprom. Before the procedure you may write down all your current eeprom settings to save time calibrating the printer from scratch. Experiments with different firmwares and their eeprom values can make a mess.

I would try this first... just swap the two connectors on the back of the lcd. If they are plugged in wrong, it will still light up, just no display.

I'm having a retraction issues I was hoping I could get pointers on. I've been printing this test piece here. And I can't seem to dial out the webbing seen here

That was the last one I printed with the following settings: Res:0.1mm, Infill: 100%, Travel: 150mm/s, Retraction length: 5mm, Lift Z: 0.5mm, Retraction speed: 40mm/s, Retract on layer change: Yes, Wipe while retracting: Yes.

Hatchbox PLA, printed at 195*C, bed temp 70*C. It was basically the same at 185C and 60/65C for previous attempts.

I don't know if I should just keep upping the retraction length until it goes away, or if there is something else to try. Retraction length was 2mm when I started. Helped a little going to 3mm, but from 3 to 5mm, no noticeable improvement.

I've tried both the black, and the green filament with same results. Any thoughts are appreciated.

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applekeith
I would try this first... just swap the two connectors on the back of the lcd. If they are plugged in wrong, it will still light up, just no display.

I don't have an LCD.

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paul_delta
Make sure that motor and endstops pairs are X-X, not X-Y.

Motor and endstop pairs are correct or it would not home correctly (I found out this early on).

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paul_delta
Do you use eeprom?

No. I always disconnect pronterface and then upload changes to the firmware from the computer.

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fattmann
I'm having a retraction issues I was hoping I could get pointers on. I've been printing this test piece here. And I can't seem to dial out the webbing seen here

wCw3HeV.jpg

That was the last one I printed with the following settings: Res:0.1mm, Infill: 100%, Travel: 150mm/s, Retraction length: 5mm, Lift Z: 0.5mm, Retraction speed: 40mm/s, Retract on layer change: Yes, Wipe while retracting: Yes.

Hatchbox PLA, printed at 195*C, bed temp 70*C. It was basically the same at 185C and 60/65C for previous attempts.

I don't know if I should just keep upping the retraction length until it goes away, or if there is something else to try. Retraction length was 2mm when I started. Helped a little going to 3mm, but from 3 to 5mm, no noticeable improvement.

I've tried both the black, and the green filament with same results. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Retraction length is what I adjust to avoid blobs. I don't see blobs in your print, so you have enough retraction. To avoid stringing, it's temperature (lower is better) and retraction speed that you need to adjust. Try 180C after the first layer and slower retraction.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

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dc42


Retraction length is what I adjust to avoid blobs. I don't see blobs in your print, so you have enough retraction. To avoid stringing, it's temperature (lower is better) and retraction speed that you need to adjust. Try 180C after the first layer and slower retraction.

Will do! Couple buddies that have Cartesian printers told me that's how they solved their retraction, I thought the Bowden tube was throwing things off. Also everything I've read talks about printing PLA at 190+, I guess "normal" is relative.

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fattmann

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dc42


Retraction length is what I adjust to avoid blobs. I don't see blobs in your print, so you have enough retraction. To avoid stringing, it's temperature (lower is better) and retraction speed that you need to adjust. Try 180C after the first layer and slower retraction.

Will do! Couple buddies that have Cartesian printers told me that's how they solved their retraction, I thought the Bowden tube was throwing things off. Also everything I've read talks about printing PLA at 190+, I guess "normal" is relative.

The smaller the object, the slower should be max. extrusion speed, the lower temperature (180C is maximum for tiny models, I'd set it to 176-178C) and slower movement speed. These strings is just a small amount of plastic, sticked to the side of nozzle. To cut them you have to lower the temperature, reduce the movement speed and use active cooling.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2015 08:55AM by paul_delta.

PS: cartesian printers usually slower than delta, especially the Z speed. Slow Z speed probably is a key to cut these strings.

I had a chance to print this model with my default PLA settings for small things (no active cooling).
I'm attaching the Simplify3D v3.0.2 settings file. The settings are:

0.1 mm layer
178C extruder temperature, 50C bed
Manual width set to 0.5mm (0.4mm nozzle)
Retraction: speed is 60mm/s, lenght 7mm, Z-lift 0.1mm
Z-axis movement speed 20mm/s
X-Y movement speed 150mm/s
The cooling feature is enabled, so the actual printing speed was about 10-15mm/s.

The whole item printing takes around 10 minutes.

This is the shot in the middle of process:

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fattmann
I'm having a retraction issues I was hoping I could get pointers on. I've been printing this test piece here. And I can't seem to dial out the webbing seen here

wCw3HeV.jpg

That was the last one I printed with the following settings: Res:0.1mm, Infill: 100%, Travel: 150mm/s, Retraction length: 5mm, Lift Z: 0.5mm, Retraction speed: 40mm/s, Retract on layer change: Yes, Wipe while retracting: Yes.

Hatchbox PLA, printed at 195*C, bed temp 70*C. It was basically the same at 185C and 60/65C for previous attempts.

I don't know if I should just keep upping the retraction length until it goes away, or if there is something else to try. Retraction length was 2mm when I started. Helped a little going to 3mm, but from 3 to 5mm, no noticeable improvement.

I've tried both the black, and the green filament with same results. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2015 01:40PM by paul_delta.

That print looks beautiful. Just got to say that.

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paul_delta
I had a chance to print this model with my default PLA settings for small things (no active cooling).
I'm attaching the Simplify3D v3.0.2 settings file. The settings are:

0.1 mm layer
178C extruder temperature, 50C bed
Manual width set to 0.5mm (0.4mm nozzle)
Retraction: speed is 60mm/s, lenght 7mm, Z-lift 0.1mm
Z-axis movement speed 20mm/s
X-Y movement speed 150mm/s
The cooling feature is enabled, so the actual printing speed in about 10-15mm/s.

The whole item printing takes around 10 minutes.

This is the shot in the middle of process:

Nice! Thanks!

Interesting... just printed this model with Hatchbox Silver PLA and there are some almost invisible strings. The white one was printed using original Folgertech white PLA. Looks like Hatchbox PLA is not so good for small objects. Does anyone know the brand of PLA that Folgertech sells (it's out of stock now). There is nothing except the number on the roll that I bought from them.

Update: it's back in stock! Going to buy some, hope they keep the same brand.

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paul_delta
Interesting... just printed this model with Hatchbox Silver PLA and there are some almost invisible strings. The white one was printed using original Folgertech white PLA. Looks like Hatchbox PLA is not so good for small objects. Does anyone know the brand of PLA that Folgertech sells (it's out of stock now). There is nothing except the number on the roll that I bought from them.

Whoa. Good to know. My buddy swears by Hatchbox, so that's what I've stared off with. Will keep that in mind when performing further tests.

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Legrand

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paul_delta
Do you use eeprom?

No. I always disconnect pronterface and then upload changes to the firmware from the computer.

What is your firmware? Did you try Repetier that I attached recently to my post?