Best hot end ? E3D, MK V-BV or Promotheus ??

I have ordered most part for the first 3d printer (mini kossel,bowden, 1.75mm), the last major part I need to choose is the hot end.

I'm in Canada so I consider shipping and currency conversion in the price.

Wich is the best choice between those hot end ?

J-Head Mk V-BV , cost : 82$

E3D V6, cost :106$

Prometheus V2 , cost : 117$

Thanks

The E3D V6 is excellent. I have purchased 3 of them for various machines I have built. Their new Cyclops hotend is superb as well if you wanted to explore dual extrusion. I have also had excellent results with the Chinese clones of the E3D V5. They also have the benefit of being extremely cheap to purchase. They do need a bit of work to ensure consistency though. Nothing major just sealing threads, polishing mating surfaces, etc. if you go with any type of all metal hotend make sure you cool it with a fan connected to a permanent 12V supply. The JHead prints very well but is a nightmare to maintain if, sorry, when you get a clog! You are also committed to a fixed nozzle size. The all metal options allow easy change of nozzle.

The thing i like ( and i think makes a difference) is that the bowden tube goes all the way into the barrel of the E3D V6 and partially into the heat break.
Its also. even with the fan, quite compact.
If you do go the E3D route i would get the plexiglass adapter plate as well. Makes fitting / removing a simple task and is a clean and light solution
Just about to move mine to the top of the effector instead of below as seen in the pic May even go higher with further adaptation to get that extra build height out of my Rostock mini.

Bigfilsing, is this an e3d clone ? I think it is from the nozzle shape are you satisfied with it ?

Andycart did you post detailed instruction how to fix the chinese e3d clone in another post ? I think I saw something like that but I cannot find the post anymore.

Im thinking of buying this nozzle :

[www.aliexpress.com]

Seem complete and come with the hard to find/costly push fit connector.

Seem good to you ?

Quote
Lerathel
Bigfilsing, is this an e3d clone ? I think it is from the nozzle shape are you satisfied with it ?

Andycart did you post detailed instruction how to fix the chinese e3d clone in another post ? I think I saw something like that but I cannot find the post anymore.

Im thinking of buying this nozzle :

[www.aliexpress.com]

Seem complete and come with the hard to find/costly push fit connector.

Seem good to you ?

I would say that that is an original V6 going by the Bowden fitting.

The proper one has it built in and is very low profile and easy to convert should you not want Bowden.

I have both an original and a Clone and the original is quite a bit better in manufacture/quality tho the clone does work (I have it on a prusa I3 with an original V6 0.8mm nozzle.

Whichever you get make sure you follow E3D's assembly instruction's to the letter the only change would be to the type of thermistor that is fitted.

Doug

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2015 04:03PM by dougal1957.

Witch nozzle size do you favor ? For me, print time is not really an issue, its detail precision. I was going for 0.4mm or 0.3mm any advice ?

I will be ordering the e3d v6 clone tonight if I find nothing bad against it.


I would love to buy the original but the price difference including shipping is too high.
There is only china that offer me a shipping option below 10 $ Even ordering from Canada cost me more then that in shipping... (im from canada)

Quote
Lerathel
Witch nozzle size do you favor ? For me, print time is not really an issue, its detail precision. I was going for 0.4mm or 0.3mm any advice ?

I will be ordering the e3d v6 clone tonight if I find nothing bad against it.


I would love to buy the original but the price difference including shipping is too high.
There is only china that offer me a shipping option below 10 $ Even ordering from Canada cost me more then that in shipping... (im from canada)

Well as far as I can see the clones only offer .3 .4 or .5 nozzles whereas E3D do .25 .3 .4 .5 .6 .8 (may even do 07 but not sure).

I also have a .4 and .25 nozzles here the .4 is a very good starting point.

doug

Quote
Lerathel
Bigfilsing, is this an e3d clone ? I think it is from the nozzle shape are you satisfied with it ?

Andycart did you post detailed instruction how to fix the chinese e3d clone in another post ? I think I saw something like that but I cannot find the post anymore.

Im thinking of buying this nozzle :

[www.aliexpress.com]

Seem complete and come with the hard to find/costly push fit connector.

Seem good to you ?

Its an original. I haven't tried a clone. The prices are very tempting thou.
I agree with Dougal ...0.4 is a good size nozzel

You don't need to do too much to get a clone set up. First dismantle it to component parts. The threaded tube that joins the cold side to the hot side needs to have its ends smooth and exactly at 90 degrees. Same for the nozzle threaded portion. I use a fine file and emery paper. When you re-assemble make sure you wrap the threaded tube with PTFE plumbers tape to seal the threads. That's it really. I would also advise a 0.4 nozzle

Thanks !

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AndyCart
You don't need to do too much to get a clone set up. First dismantle it to component parts. The threaded tube that joins the cold side to the hot side needs to have its ends smooth and exactly at 90 degrees. Same for the nozzle threaded portion. I use a fine file and emery paper. When you re-assemble make sure you wrap the threaded tube with PTFE plumbers tape to seal the threads. That's it really. I would also advise a 0.4 nozzle

Andy ..surely the plumbers tape insulates the threaded tube ( heat break) from the alu fin barrel reducing functionality ??

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bigfilsing
Andy ..surely the plumbers tape insulates the threaded tube ( heat break) from the alu fin barrel reducing functionality ??

That's a GOOD thing...hence why they call the stainless tube a heat BREAK.....

The heat transition/conduction up the hot-end is stopped by the finned barrel with a fan blowing on it. Taping the heatbreak with teflon/PTFE is insulating it and preventing the fan from being effective IMO
Of course we are only talking about a minimal amount of conducted heat that " manages" to get past the thin turned section but still. I was under the impression that was the whole point of an "all metal" hot end
If anything, i think it would be better to apply thermal paste to the heat break section that screws into the barrel.

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bigfilsing
The heat transition/conduction up the hot-end is stopped by the finned barrel with a fan blowing on it.

E3D hotend science (voodoo) wants to keep the melt zone as short as possible inside the hotend. The longer the melt zone gets, the more the filament swells out in its rubbery semi-melted state and causes increased friction/jamming.

The heat break is made out of stainless steel, chosen because it is not the best conductor of heat. Then, it was machined to make the smallest conductive path between the heater block and cooling fins. This is why the part was made so thin that it sometimes break when people look at it funny! Plus, why would they put an unnecessary piece of metal into the design when they could have omitted it and connected the heater block straight to the cooling fins?

I am not a thermal engineer and did not run any tests, but I suspect that the fins and cooling fan are there more to deal with externally-radiated heat rising up from the heater block than heat coming up through the heat break. Hence, the PTFE tape is not hurting anything...and may actually be an improvement!

There was a neat thread in another section here a few months ago about a guy who had a custom quartz tube machined to replace the heat break. He broke the glass before doing any long-term tests IIRC, but it reinforced the idea that a better heat break will not have negative impacts on an E3D.....

Bottom line with these chinese knock offs is that, sometimes, if you don't seal the threads, they leak. From experience the tape doesn't affect how they operate. They come with a small section of PTFE tube inside the stainless steel tube anyway. I do accept that the tape/tube limits the highest temps you can run at and this may make the clones unsuitable for use with the more exotic filaments. But they are only a few dollars, and even less pounds, to buy. I've not managed to find a cheaper hot end anywhere. They also print really well once you set them up properly. For the money, you can't go wrong!

Not sure what i think of this new arrival
[e3d-online.com]

The cynic in me says they are finally admitting to all the V6 jamming problems reported in their forums and going with a PTFE lined solution and selling the "combat copies" as a smoke screen.

But heh as long as it works
I'm just peeved i have just received 43 quids worth of V6 when this would have been just as good for my needs

IF your a Brit dont watch the video . Couple of public school boys who think they are in an episode of "Foyles war" pretending to be engineers. Trying to sell the concept that the savings (of 50%) are in the cool fins respective varying depths. "Oh gosh" what utter BS
If they have to fight the clones for market share ...fair enough but dont try to "sell" your user base BS. Any idea how many users out there are actual engineers with decades of experience.!!!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2015 02:04PM by bigfilsing.

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bigfilsing
The cynic in me says they are finally admitting to all the V6 jamming problems reported in their forums and going with a PTFE lined solution and selling the "combat copies" as a smoke screen.

Not really, although there is a lot of online noise about jamming issues almost all of these are resolved through support from us. We really stand behind what we design and sell. If it's not working let us know and we'll fix it. v6 has tens of thousands of units in the wild, and the number of issues vs complaints is incredibly small. Most issues are understandable minor user error issues in assembly or software configuration, then comes bad filament, then we have had a few that were indeed our fault (manufacturing errors), but this number is something like 20 instances, and all were remedied as soon as found.

The reason for Lite6 is to create a hotend that is lower cost by design. Our current v6 all metal approach is awesome, but it costs a lot to make. We're using a lot of custom tooling, expensive swiss collet lathes, and have to manufacture from defect free materials, along with a human performed QC step on every part.

The Lite6 sink means you can ditch the super pricey heatbreak, and also the moderately expensive heatsink (still made on fancy lathes to ensure thermal contact at threads is within spec). Instead you can substitute a part that we get made out of house, from a large volume low cost turning shop. The tolerances and control are way less, but the PTFE means we can ignore much of that. This means that the Lite6 sink is super cheap compared to a heatbreak and heatsink on our in-house machining. Around 25% of the cost in fact. That's where the savings come from, along with design for manufacture in extremis.

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bigfilsing
Couple of public school boys who think they are in an episode of "Foyles war" pretending to be engineers.

Not watched foyles war, but did have a look on youtube, it does look quite good though! The video does indeed make me cringe a little every time I watch it, but it was intended to be pretty self deprecating humour and a parody of ourselves. Mainly it entertains our American friends who find it "quaint" among other things, bless them.

I didn't read a pure engineering degree, but studied a mixture of computer science, mechanical engineering, and electrical engineering for my bachelors degree, then a masters in applied robotics. At a leading UK engineering university. I then taught engineering for two years before starting E3D. Josh, my partner in crime in the video is fully legit mechanical engineer, with a masters in mechatronics. Same university as me, that's where we met. He used to maintain nuclear power plants before coming aboard with E3D. I can very much assure you we are not in any way "pretending to be engineers."

Lite6 is indeed designed and poised to steal market share from clones, but it's in no way a v6 replacement, just a way of offering something at a lower price point that doesn't suck.

If you want to go over to a Lite6 instead of a v6 and get the difference refunded I'm totally happy to do so if the parts aren't damaged. Just send it back to us and we'll send you out a Lite6 and refund the difference. Launching new products is hard when some people place orders just before releases and get buyers remorse, we try and be as reasonable as possible in these sorts of situations.

Cheers,
Sanjay

Thanks for the extensive reply.

I appreciate that you, like any engineering company, have to struggle to meet customer demands and expectations. Developing and bringing a product to market is , as anyone who has ever done it will agree. a challenging arduous task.
I think most of my negative attitude is driven from frustration. After running a V5 for over a year with out any problems what so ever the V6 (of which i have 2 sets and as good as another one in parts) continues to give me problems.
Spending time on settings ...retracts etc has helped a lot but i still think the V5 was more reliable.

Your academic achievements are impressive and i am genuinely jealous that you enjoyed courses in mechatronics /robotics and only wish that such courses had been available when i was studying. I attended the " if at first you don't succeed ..get a bigger hammer" UK engineering educational path of the 70's. Later adding some refinement in process control & PLC's etc. Currently on record as the builder and co designer of the worlds biggest animatronic.
My point being that i have considerable experience in engineering and particularly in price/performance evaluation. The " pennies/microns" went a tad too far.

How ever relevant to "the market" requirements the V6 lite may be and again somewhat cynically, i think it is a step down from the "all metal" pure concept that has been the E3D mantra for so long. I have no doubt it will be successful for you. if for nothing else than it being an E3D and based on your hard earned reputation.
I can only hope it doesn't turn into a support nightmare for you.

Thank you for the generous offer of a swap / refund. Unfortunately the heater block is deformed as the heater cartridge supplied has a smaller diameter than usual. I have reported this with photo to your tech support recently.
IF you do have a moment a chase up would be appreciated
For me it is not about the money. Like many others i have no problem paying for the quality product and service you provide. If you want a cheap plastic lenovo android phone or a solid metal case Nokia there's a price to pay.
While the E3D products are expensive they represents good value considering the quality component parts and the printing results they usually give.

When you have cornered somebody into dealing with the tech support for your products and are lying on a beach somewhere, buy the DVD collection of Foyles war . Good solid Brit drama at its best. I may be over rating it somewhat Living overseas for 35 years has me some what starved of quality TV. You may yet have to realise that stage in a personal relationship that you wish your partner would burst into flames and vanish but when that moment comes ( and it will ....yup ...cynical again) locking yourself away with good TV may offer some relief.

Clearly now the V6 lite has come to market you will be twiddling your thumbs for the foreseeable future and when you have developed the single nozzle- 3 extruder RGB hot end we are all waiting for ( Oh yeah and the 8 bit colour depth Marlin code) id love to know your honest opinion on why my V5 was and is a lot less hassle than the V6 Thank you

Cheers

Phil

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2015 03:01AM by bigfilsing.

soon you will see a chinese v6 lite clones at 5-10 dollars and the same quality....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2015 06:39AM by ekaggrat.

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ekaggrat
soon you will see a chinese v6 lite clones at 5-10 dollars and the same quality....

But with much, much, much worse support available.

Toronto Canada

New invention adjustable extruder

[www.kickstarter.com]

sorry forgot to post the link...

Quote
qwerty007
[www.kickstarter.com]

sorry forgot to post the link...

...and so it died.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Quote
bigfilsing
The heat transition/conduction up the hot-end is stopped by the finned barrel with a fan blowing on it. Taping the heatbreak with teflon/PTFE is insulating it and preventing the fan from being effective IMO
Of course we are only talking about a minimal amount of conducted heat that " manages" to get past the thin turned section but still. I was under the impression that was the whole point of an "all metal" hot end
If anything, i think it would be better to apply thermal paste to the heat break section that screws into the barrel.

You want to keep the heat in the hot end so using PTFE tape between the throat tube and the heatbreak is probably beneficial (see below), you don't want to use it between the nozzle and the heater block. The heat break is to ensure heat does not reach the (often printed) carriage holding the hot end, it is not a cooling system for the hot end which doesn't need cooling, if it gets too hot the heater just reduces its power output. It might be a semi useful cooling system when you stop printing and want the hot end to cool quickly but that isn't its function. You have to put a lot more power into the hotend heater if a lot of heat is conducting up the heatbreak.

Plus I think the point of an all metal hot end is to do away with ptfe guide tubes near the hot areas, as they limit your ability to run the nozzle temperature above 260 Deg C without the PTFE eventually breaking down into some very toxic by-products, so don't use the pfte tape between the throat and the heater block if you're printing nylon etc...

The whole point of the heatbreak ( or throat tube) being so small is to stop the heat traveling up the hot end assembly hence the transition area (on the E3D for example) being turned down to a minimal diameter so there is less material to conduct the heat. The aim is to keep the filament as solid as possible for as long as possible before it reaches the heater block and nozzle chamber.
Any heat that does ( inevitably) "creep" up the heatbreak ( throat tube) needs to be dissipated into the cool fin element and not into the filament. Hence applying PTFE to it will prevent the heat being dissipated properly and isn't in line with the principle working.
Considering PTFE costs a couple of cents im sure the manufacturers would recommend it if it were an advantage !!!!

The only thing i do during assembly is to apply a thin layer of graphite grease to help when it comes to dis assembly. Dissimilar metals ( SS & Alu) have a remarkable ability to bind together after repeated heat cycles.
Much like RC Nitro engines , a bit of care when assembling them can reap massive benefits when its time to strip them down

Good luck

Quote
bigfilsing
The whole point of the heatbreak ( or throat tube) being so small is to stop the heat traveling up the hot end assembly hence the transition area (on the E3D for example) being turned down to a minimal diameter so there is less material to conduct the heat. The aim is to keep the filament as solid as possible for as long as possible before it reaches the heater block and nozzle chamber.
Any heat that does ( inevitably) "creep" up the heatbreak ( throat tube) needs to be dissipated into the cool fin element and not into the filament. Hence applying PTFE to it will prevent the heat being dissipated properly and isn't in line with the principle working.
Considering PTFE costs a couple of cents im sure the manufacturers would recommend it if it were an advantage !!!!

The only thing i do during assembly is to apply a thin layer of graphite grease to help when it comes to dis assembly. Dissimilar metals ( SS & Alu) have a remarkable ability to bind together after repeated heat cycles.
Much like RC Nitro engines , a bit of care when assembling them can reap massive benefits when its time to strip them down

Good luck

Just to add a little here I have recently purchased 2 more V6's from E3D and they are now supplied with a small sachet of thermal compound which should be smeared on the threads that screw into the Heatsink and NOT on the heatblock side.

HTH

Doug

Even the "high temp" ptfe tape is only 500f/260c tape so basically back to around 250c for printing max. I use the stuff on my real J-Head but I would not on an all metal for sure.

---

_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.

Yeah apologies, I just reread my message and I meant place the ptfe between the throat and the heater block, not between the throat and the heatbreak/heatsink. I totally agree that any heat in the throat above the heat block needs to be quickly dissipated to prevent the filament softening and sticking.

Quote
dougal1957
Just to add a little here I have recently purchased 2 more V6's from E3D and they are now supplied with a small sachet of thermal compound which should be smeared on the threads that screw into the Heatsink and NOT on the heatblock side.

HTH

Doug

Interesting indeed. Is there any brand/ type of the paste ?? I wonder what the temp rating is and if it's a standard "CPU" type of paste.

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bigfilsing

Quote
dougal1957
Just to add a little here I have recently purchased 2 more V6's from E3D and they are now supplied with a small sachet of thermal compound which should be smeared on the threads that screw into the Heatsink and NOT on the heatblock side.

HTH

Doug

Interesting indeed. Is there any brand/ type of the paste ?? I wonder what the temp rating is and if it's a standard "CPU" type of paste.

See attached picture of the sachet that was supplied with one of my as yet unused one.

the use is documented on there online instructions now as well just to aid conduction between the heatbreak and the heatsink further re-inforcing the fact that good thermal conductivity in this area is essential.

Doug

ps the paste is White in colour

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 03:18AM by dougal1957.