Dual extruder Delta machine

So i have recently gotten my first 3d printer (after wanting one for nearly 8 years)
and as much as i love my wanhao i3 i am looking a building my own printer.
Rather then building another Cartesian Machine i was thinking of building a Delta
as from what i have read and been told they are faster and more accurate and to be fair they just look cool with the
print head zipping about the way they do.
long story short i settled on building a dual extruder kossel [reprap.org]
however i recently discovered that the 3d models neccessary for the build are no longer there and CDaringe is MIA
which also makes troubleshooting any problems nearly impossible

So i was hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction in regards to another Delta machine with dual extruder that i can build
i am happy to build a single extruder machine that i can at as later date add the second extruder if that is the best way to go about it.
i would prefer auto-leveling but if it doesn't that isn't a big deal

any help would be greatly appreciated

The good news is for the most part the difference between a single and dual extruder can be limited to just the effector and a few extra components.

Having built a multi extruder machine and knowing what I know now, I suggest you build a single extruder machine and later modify to a multi if you need to.... at least that way you will have a machine which you can use to build the modified parts

The main problem with a multi extruder is with each extruder your problems increase exponentially, and frankly after doing a few trial prints I've found I do so little multi extrusion work, that my multi extruder machine has only had one extruder on it for the last three months anyway.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2016 09:59PM by bgkdavis.

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RepRapPro Mendel 3 Tricolour
RepRapPro Fisher
-Carbon Arms
-Easy adjust Carriage+effector
-axis stiffness mods
HE3D -600 delta
-Duet 0.8.5
-PanelDue
-DC42 Height probe
-RobotDigg metal components
Simplyfy3D
RS Design Spark CAD

Good luck with getting a dual extruder delta to work properly. You will have problems with effector tilt, unless you are extremely fastidious about getting everything totally perfect. That's not to say that it can't be done, but you will run into problems.

I have a dual extruder head sitting here in front of me, and I've resigned myself to building a cartesian (like a coreXY) before I'll be able to use it properly.

Even though my Delta is still in construction, the total number of times I've used the dual extruders on the FFCP in over 4000hrs of printing is completely minimal for traditional dual extrusion work.... I have however used it constantly for "ditto" printing last year and would love to see that feature in RRP firmware.

So like bg suggested my build will be a single extruder Delta that I will get dialled in and fully working before looking at multi extrusion capability... but I'm already hooked on the 300 colour thingy

Maybe a 2 into 1 head would be a better option like the E3D Cyclops [e3d-online.com], this option wont be practical if you want to print different materials like dissolve-able scaffold, but may give you functional multi colour.


The problem with multi extrusion is whilst is sounds cool and better, if you don't have an actual valid reason for multi extrusion, its just a royal pain in the ass

---

RepRapPro Mendel 3 Tricolour
RepRapPro Fisher
-Carbon Arms
-Easy adjust Carriage+effector
-axis stiffness mods
HE3D -600 delta
-Duet 0.8.5
-PanelDue
-DC42 Height probe
-RobotDigg metal components
Simplyfy3D
RS Design Spark CAD

I was planning to convert my large delta (see link in my signature) to dual extrusion, but I now think that the Diamond hot end might be the way to go. It would increase the mass on the effector substantially, so I would replace my 2020 verticals by 2040, and use 8mm or 10mm CF tubes for the rods.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

The problem I have with mixing extruders is I've yet to see a slicer package that can make good use of them

Of course if/when they become popular then Im sure the slicer software will follow

---

RepRapPro Mendel 3 Tricolour
RepRapPro Fisher
-Carbon Arms
-Easy adjust Carriage+effector
-axis stiffness mods
HE3D -600 delta
-Duet 0.8.5
-PanelDue
-DC42 Height probe
-RobotDigg metal components
Simplyfy3D
RS Design Spark CAD

So reading up on the diamond hotend (which is new to me) seems like a good alternative to a dual extruder. i think i might need to read up on them some more

Quote
bgkdavis
The problem I have with mixing extruders is I've yet to see a slicer package that can make good use of them

Of course if/when they become popular then Im sure the slicer software will follow

That is certainly a problem at present. Also I hear that the mixing in the Diamond is not perfect, so the colour of the print when mixing depends somewhat on the printing direction.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

So im thinking the diamond hotend is the way to go. i think using 2040 ali extrusions is a good choice so i've been looking into it.
i managed to come across this 2040 delta kossel
but unfortunately the files for the vertexes are missing and the author is also MIA which causes a bit of a problem in getting the vertexes unfortunatly
anyone know of any other 2040 kossel builds?

I strongly recommend you use metal corners, either the Robotdigg 2040 ones or the less expensive 25K sheet metal ones. You could do a build similar to the one described in my blog but with 2040 verticals instead of 2020.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Someone (not me) modeled the Delta-Six printer in the Openscad simulator, so you have the vertexes functions in the data file here :
[github.com]

Just call each function corresponding to the desired Vertex.

---

Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]

Delta-six OpenScad files and STL files are in the zip file in the 'files and drawing' tab of the link you have given. They are more detailed than what is in the simulation, so what do you mean when you say the Vertexes files are missing ?.

Quote
Adventprinter
So im thinking the diamond hotend is the way to go. i think using 2040 ali extrusions is a good choice so i've been looking into it.
i managed to come across this 2040 delta kossel
but unfortunately the files for the vertexes are missing and the author is also MIA which causes a bit of a problem in getting the vertexes unfortunatly
anyone know of any other 2040 kossel builds?

---

Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]

Quote
dc42

Quote
bgkdavis
The problem I have with mixing extruders is I've yet to see a slicer package that can make good use of them

Of course if/when they become popular then Im sure the slicer software will follow

That is certainly a problem at present. Also I hear that the mixing in the Diamond is not perfect, so the colour of the print when mixing depends somewhat on the printing direction.

Colour mixing works OK with translucent filament though - [forums.reprap.org]

Also, the "striped toothpaste" effect that can be exploited for fun. If you set mix ratios to 33% for all 3 filaments and print a 3 sided pyramid with each side orientated towards one of the filament inlets, you get a pyramid with each face a different colour.

Slic3r kind of supports multiple extruders. You need to define each coloured part as a separate stl file though and if you want to mix filaments (say blue and yellow to give green) you have to do that by setting the mix ratios outside of Slic3r.

Simplyfy3d supports multiple extruders far better than slic3r, but there is a world of difference between supporting multiple extruders and mixing extruders.

Ideally for the mixing extruder concept to work you would start with a coloured solid body, which itself is a problem, and the printer would print it to the correct colour, and incidentaly there are rapid prototype machines that can do this.

Putting aside the issue of coloured solid bodies, slicer packages still fall way short for example you cant say to the slicer that I want this shape printed in colour xx fading to colour yy as it goes higher.

Yes you can modify the colouring after slicing, but that in itself is going to require a post post processor packag.....

but until they actually resolve the poor mixing issues I feel that mixing exrruders may be little more that a gimmick and not hVe a realy przctical use.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2016 08:45PM by bgkdavis.

---

RepRapPro Mendel 3 Tricolour
RepRapPro Fisher
-Carbon Arms
-Easy adjust Carriage+effector
-axis stiffness mods
HE3D -600 delta
-Duet 0.8.5
-PanelDue
-DC42 Height probe
-RobotDigg metal components
Simplyfy3D
RS Design Spark CAD

Quote
PRZ
Delta-six OpenScad files and STL files are in the zip file in the 'files and drawing' tab of the link you have given. They are more detailed than what is in the simulation, so what do you mean when you say the Vertexes files are missing ?.

ah thanks for that. i was clicking the download linke under the parts list.

So going with the diamond hotend and the increased weigh the three filament intakes and the larger effector that the hotend will require. would standard nema17s be fine or should i upgrade to something like the nema23.

what are peoples thoughts on flying extruders? is it worth incorporating it at the start or something i should consider down the road once i have the machine built and running for a few prints first?

I think 48mm long Nema 17 motors with an appropriate current rating should be adequate. I suggest designing without a flying extruder initially, but with some thought given to what changes would be needed to support a flying extruder e.g. attachment points on the carriages.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
Adventprinter

what are peoples thoughts on flying extruders? is it worth incorporating it at the start or something i should consider down the road once i have the machine built and running for a few prints first?

It will be easier to have 3 flying extruders when you have a bigger machine than the standard delta.

[deltaprinter.co.za]

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You only learn when you change your mind.
[www.deltaprinter.co.za]

Would this stepper be suitable you recon

bipolar high torque Nema 17 stepper motor with 1.8° step angle (200 steps/revolution). Each phase draws 2A, allowing for a holding torque of 59Ncm(83.6oz.in).

Specification

Manufacturer Part Number 17HS19-2004S1
Step Angle 1.8°
Step Accuracy 5%
Holding Torque 59Ncm(83.6oz.in)
Rated Current/phase 2.0A
Phase Resistance 1.4ohms
Voltage 2.8V
Inductance 3.0mH±20%(1KHz)
Weight 400g

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2016 07:45AM by Adventprinter.

Quote
Adventprinter
Would this stepper be suitable you recon

bipolar high torque Nema 17 stepper motor with 1.8° step angle (200 steps/revolution). Each phase draws 2A, allowing for a holding torque of 59Ncm(83.6oz.in).

Specification

Manufacturer Part Number 17HS19-2004S1
Step Angle 1.8°
Step Accuracy 5%
Holding Torque 59Ncm(83.6oz.in)
Rated Current/phase 2.0A
Phase Resistance 1.4ohms
Voltage 2.8V
Inductance 3.0mH±20%(1KHz)
Weight 400g

That's quite a good choice, however for any new delta build I suggest using 0.9deg/step motors because they provide more precise positioning and cost only a little more. The 17HM19-1684S is a good choice. With 0.9deg/step motors, you should use 32-bit electronics and 24V power if you want high travel speeds.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

I assume your question is about steppers for extruder, not for movement ?
This stepper is good for a direct drive extruder, however, if you want to install three flying extruder for a diamond hot end, you want to limit the weight and direct drive extruders are not a good option. If these extruder are fixed with three Bowden tubes, this is ok, and the simplest.
For flying extruders, you shall search light geared extruders.
There are solutions based on small stepper like Nema14, but I think you may have a not very different weight with small Nema17 steppers (34mm length, as used on RepRapPro machines) and geared extruder.
An off the shelf solution is to use the new E3D Titan, which is not the most powerful, but sufficient for most uses.

Also, handling 2A steppers with sufficient current will need well cooled stepper drivers, so 'Integral' boards, with integrated drivers. For Extruder, the same stepper wired for 1.7A may be better (but NOT for movement). See [reprap.org].

Quote
Adventprinter
Would this stepper be suitable you recon

bipolar high torque Nema 17 stepper motor with 1.8° step angle (200 steps/revolution). Each phase draws 2A, allowing for a holding torque of 59Ncm(83.6oz.in).

Specification

Manufacturer Part Number 17HS19-2004S1
Step Angle 1.8°
Step Accuracy 5%
Holding Torque 59Ncm(83.6oz.in)
Rated Current/phase 2.0A
Phase Resistance 1.4ohms
Voltage 2.8V
Inductance 3.0mH±20%(1KHz)
Weight 400g

---

Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]

Quote
PRZ
I assume your question is about steppers for extruder, not for movement ?

I was assuming the opposite when I replied. I agree with you regarding extruder drive motors.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

I was thinking for the movement.
at the moment im going to be fixing the extruder motors to the top of the printer and then at a later person im going to be looking for lighter motors for the flying extruders later

There is a description of a delta printer with Diamond hot end here [forum.seemecnc.com]. It would be even easier with a Duet+X4 because the firmware already supports colour mixing. You might like to ask the author of that post what mechanical construction and motors he used.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].