Re: RepRap Foundation

This is probably a good time to raise this Zach. Does the EFF have a
model for doing this, does anyone know?

I should start by saying that I know nothing about how companies and
tax work in the UK, let alone elsewhere. (I was a company director for
ten years, but we had an accountant on the board so all I had to do was
to look at documents he gave out and to sign some official forms. I
think that my signature was to confirm that I felt that he could both
add and subtract, but I'm not 100% sure...)

Anyway. It seems to me that there should be two legally separate activities:

1. RepRap itself, which should be a non-profit-making charity, and
2. A commercial company (RepRapCom?) for supplying kits, consultancy, etc.

Though they may well involve the same people, or some of them.

I haven't the faintest idea how to do either, of if it's legally
possible to move money from 2 to 1 (or the other way, though I don't
see why we'd want to do that).

I also think that whatever we do has to work worldwide, and that the
one thing that we have proved is that we can collaborate all over the
planet with no problem. So we should set things up in the best
geographical location(s) to benefit the project. (Ireland, anyone?)

Does anyone who has the faintest idea what they're talking about have
an opinion? And if they do, and if they respond, will I have to reply
as if I've understood what they've said?

Best wishes

Adrian

Dr Adrian Bowyer
[staff.bath.ac.uk]
[reprap.org]



Quoting Zach Hoeken :

> I'm wondering what the non-profit status of the group is, particularly
> in USA. This is particularly important once we start selling part
> kits. Initially, I'm totally fine personally ordering and selling
> boards, but at some point in time (probably this year) the volume
> will get to the point where it will become a tax liability and should
> really be under the umbrella of a company. This isnt a pressing issue,
> but is definitely one that would be nice to have taken care of sooner,
> rather than later.
>
> I'm more than willing to do the necessary paper work and get it setup
> if it isnt already. I figure it would be a good idea to email EFF /
> or some of the other open source groups and see if they'd give us a
> hand / pointers for setting up a non profit.
.


_______________________________________________
Developers mailing list
Developers@reprap.org
[reprap.org]

i think that it makes sense to have the non profit stuff cover only
the kit and other sale / real transaction type stuff. the only real
reason to do it is to make the monetary issues much easier to deal
with. we can leave the software side of things out of it: we shouldnt
make passing bits over the internet any harder than it needs to be =)

It would probably be easiest for to just have separate non profit
groups in each country. i found a sweet oreilly article on how to do
it in the US: [www.oreillynet.com]

apparently its really easy and only $75 in the state of NY where i
live. it does say you should consult a lawyer, which is a good idea.

i'll write up a letter to the EFF and find out if they know anyone who
will give us free/cheap legal help.

fun!



On 4/5/07, Adrian Bowyer wrote:
> This is probably a good time to raise this Zach. Does the EFF have a
> model for doing this, does anyone know?
>
> I should start by saying that I know nothing about how companies and
> tax work in the UK, let alone elsewhere. (I was a company director for
> ten years, but we had an accountant on the board so all I had to do was
> to look at documents he gave out and to sign some official forms. I
> think that my signature was to confirm that I felt that he could both
> add and subtract, but I'm not 100% sure...)
>
> Anyway. It seems to me that there should be two legally separate activities:
>
> 1. RepRap itself, which should be a non-profit-making charity, and
> 2. A commercial company (RepRapCom?) for supplying kits, consultancy, etc.
>
> Though they may well involve the same people, or some of them.
>
> I haven't the faintest idea how to do either, of if it's legally
> possible to move money from 2 to 1 (or the other way, though I don't
> see why we'd want to do that).
>
> I also think that whatever we do has to work worldwide, and that the
> one thing that we have proved is that we can collaborate all over the
> planet with no problem. So we should set things up in the best
> geographical location(s) to benefit the project. (Ireland, anyone?)
>
> Does anyone who has the faintest idea what they're talking about have
> an opinion? And if they do, and if they respond, will I have to reply
> as if I've understood what they've said?
>
> Best wishes
>
> Adrian
>
> Dr Adrian Bowyer
> [staff.bath.ac.uk]
> [reprap.org]
>
>
>
> Quoting Zach Hoeken :
>
> > I'm wondering what the non-profit status of the group is, particularly
> > in USA. This is particularly important once we start selling part
> > kits. Initially, I'm totally fine personally ordering and selling
> > boards, but at some point in time (probably this year) the volume
> > will get to the point where it will become a tax liability and should
> > really be under the umbrella of a company. This isnt a pressing issue,
> > but is definitely one that would be nice to have taken care of sooner,
> > rather than later.
> >
> > I'm more than willing to do the necessary paper work and get it setup
> > if it isnt already. I figure it would be a good idea to email EFF /
> > or some of the other open source groups and see if they'd give us a
> > hand / pointers for setting up a non profit.
> .
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Developers mailing list
> Developers@reprap.org
> [reprap.org]
>
_______________________________________________
Developers mailing list
Developers@reprap.org
[reprap.org]

I'm in the middle of writing a longer letter about that, but it keeps
devolving into a anarcho-socialist denunciation of intellectual property and
late-stage capitalism. I'll try to clean it up and submit a final draft to
you guys in 12-24 hours.

One note: I don't think we can sell kits or parts until the FDM patent
expires.

-Sebastien

On Thursday 05 April 2007 18:40, Zach Hoeken wrote:
> i think that it makes sense to have the non profit stuff cover only
> the kit and other sale / real transaction type stuff. the only real
> reason to do it is to make the monetary issues much easier to deal
> with. we can leave the software side of things out of it: we shouldnt
> make passing bits over the internet any harder than it needs to be =)
>
> It would probably be easiest for to just have separate non profit
> groups in each country. i found a sweet oreilly article on how to do
> it in the US:
> [www.oreillynet.com]
>
> apparently its really easy and only $75 in the state of NY where i
> live. it does say you should consult a lawyer, which is a good idea.
>
> i'll write up a letter to the EFF and find out if they know anyone who
> will give us free/cheap legal help.
>
> fun!
>
> On 4/5/07, Adrian Bowyer wrote:
> > This is probably a good time to raise this Zach. Does the EFF have a
> > model for doing this, does anyone know?
> >
> > I should start by saying that I know nothing about how companies and
> > tax work in the UK, let alone elsewhere. (I was a company director for
> > ten years, but we had an accountant on the board so all I had to do was
> > to look at documents he gave out and to sign some official forms. I
> > think that my signature was to confirm that I felt that he could both
> > add and subtract, but I'm not 100% sure...)
> >
> > Anyway. It seems to me that there should be two legally separate
> > activities:
> >
> > 1. RepRap itself, which should be a non-profit-making charity, and
> > 2. A commercial company (RepRapCom?) for supplying kits, consultancy,
> > etc.
> >
> > Though they may well involve the same people, or some of them.
> >
> > I haven't the faintest idea how to do either, of if it's legally
> > possible to move money from 2 to 1 (or the other way, though I don't
> > see why we'd want to do that).
> >
> > I also think that whatever we do has to work worldwide, and that the
> > one thing that we have proved is that we can collaborate all over the
> > planet with no problem. So we should set things up in the best
> > geographical location(s) to benefit the project. (Ireland, anyone?)
> >
> > Does anyone who has the faintest idea what they're talking about have
> > an opinion? And if they do, and if they respond, will I have to reply
> > as if I've understood what they've said?
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> > Dr Adrian Bowyer
> > [staff.bath.ac.uk]
> > [reprap.org]
> >
> > Quoting Zach Hoeken :
> > > I'm wondering what the non-profit status of the group is, particularly
> > > in USA. This is particularly important once we start selling part
> > > kits. Initially, I'm totally fine personally ordering and selling
> > > boards, but at some point in time (probably this year) the volume
> > > will get to the point where it will become a tax liability and should
> > > really be under the umbrella of a company. This isnt a pressing issue,
> > > but is definitely one that would be nice to have taken care of sooner,
> > > rather than later.
> > >
> > > I'm more than willing to do the necessary paper work and get it setup
> > > if it isnt already. I figure it would be a good idea to email EFF /
> > > or some of the other open source groups and see if they'd give us a
> > > hand / pointers for setting up a non profit.
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Developers mailing list
> > Developers@reprap.org
> > [reprap.org]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Developers mailing list
> Developers@reprap.org
> [reprap.org]
_______________________________________________
Developers mailing list
Developers@reprap.org
[reprap.org]

this letter just needs to be simple: we want to start a non profit to
handle distribution and sales of reprap related material objects. we
arent lawyers and we need help.

that should do it. you can always send your letter about IP at a later date.

~Zach

On 4/6/07, Sebastien Bailard wrote:
> I'm in the middle of writing a longer letter about that, but it keeps
> devolving into a anarcho-socialist denunciation of intellectual property and
> late-stage capitalism. I'll try to clean it up and submit a final draft to
> you guys in 12-24 hours.
>
> One note: I don't think we can sell kits or parts until the FDM patent
> expires.
>
> -Sebastien
>
> On Thursday 05 April 2007 18:40, Zach Hoeken wrote:
> > i think that it makes sense to have the non profit stuff cover only
> > the kit and other sale / real transaction type stuff. the only real
> > reason to do it is to make the monetary issues much easier to deal
> > with. we can leave the software side of things out of it: we shouldnt
> > make passing bits over the internet any harder than it needs to be =)
> >
> > It would probably be easiest for to just have separate non profit
> > groups in each country. i found a sweet oreilly article on how to do
> > it in the US:
> > [www.oreillynet.com]
> >
> > apparently its really easy and only $75 in the state of NY where i
> > live. it does say you should consult a lawyer, which is a good idea.
> >
> > i'll write up a letter to the EFF and find out if they know anyone who
> > will give us free/cheap legal help.
> >
> > fun!
> >
> > On 4/5/07, Adrian Bowyer wrote:
> > > This is probably a good time to raise this Zach. Does the EFF have a
> > > model for doing this, does anyone know?
> > >
> > > I should start by saying that I know nothing about how companies and
> > > tax work in the UK, let alone elsewhere. (I was a company director for
> > > ten years, but we had an accountant on the board so all I had to do was
> > > to look at documents he gave out and to sign some official forms. I
> > > think that my signature was to confirm that I felt that he could both
> > > add and subtract, but I'm not 100% sure...)
> > >
> > > Anyway. It seems to me that there should be two legally separate
> > > activities:
> > >
> > > 1. RepRap itself, which should be a non-profit-making charity, and
> > > 2. A commercial company (RepRapCom?) for supplying kits, consultancy,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > Though they may well involve the same people, or some of them.
> > >
> > > I haven't the faintest idea how to do either, of if it's legally
> > > possible to move money from 2 to 1 (or the other way, though I don't
> > > see why we'd want to do that).
> > >
> > > I also think that whatever we do has to work worldwide, and that the
> > > one thing that we have proved is that we can collaborate all over the
> > > planet with no problem. So we should set things up in the best
> > > geographical location(s) to benefit the project. (Ireland, anyone?)
> > >
> > > Does anyone who has the faintest idea what they're talking about have
> > > an opinion? And if they do, and if they respond, will I have to reply
> > > as if I've understood what they've said?
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > >
> > > Adrian
> > >
> > > Dr Adrian Bowyer
> > > [staff.bath.ac.uk]
> > > [reprap.org]
> > >
> > > Quoting Zach Hoeken :
> > > > I'm wondering what the non-profit status of the group is, particularly
> > > > in USA. This is particularly important once we start selling part
> > > > kits. Initially, I'm totally fine personally ordering and selling
> > > > boards, but at some point in time (probably this year) the volume
> > > > will get to the point where it will become a tax liability and should
> > > > really be under the umbrella of a company. This isnt a pressing issue,
> > > > but is definitely one that would be nice to have taken care of sooner,
> > > > rather than later.
> > > >
> > > > I'm more than willing to do the necessary paper work and get it setup
> > > > if it isnt already. I figure it would be a good idea to email EFF /
> > > > or some of the other open source groups and see if they'd give us a
> > > > hand / pointers for setting up a non profit.
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Developers mailing list
> > > Developers@reprap.org
> > > [reprap.org]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Developers mailing list
> > Developers@reprap.org
> > [reprap.org]
>
_______________________________________________
Developers mailing list
Developers@reprap.org
[reprap.org]

Quoting Sebastien Bailard :

> One note: I don't think we can sell kits or parts until the FDM patent
> expires.

I think it did last year...

Best wishes

Adrian

Dr Adrian Bowyer
[staff.bath.ac.uk]
[reprap.org]
_______________________________________________
Developers mailing list
Developers@reprap.org
[reprap.org]

2 things i do not see where to order parts the [store.rrrf.org] does not see to work from the U.S., if you could tell me where to order the parts i would like to get involved.

as far as you making the non-profit here are the links you will need.
it will change per state but most can be used in all states.

[nvsos.gov]

you have to choose what you want from there.
you might also try:

[corp.delaware.gov]

each have there own + and - parts

after you file the Non-profit cooperation
then you have to call to IRS and get a tax number when on the phone ask what documents you will need for the 501(c) 3
they will change one depending on what you are doing.

i hope this helps you.

treejc21@gmail.com

2 things i do not see where to order parts the [store.rrrf.org] does not see to work from the U.S., if you could tell me where to order the parts i would like to get involved.

RepRap's electronics sort of did a cambrian explosion thing about a year ago:
http://reprap.org/wiki/Alternative_electronics#Recommended

RepRap doesn't seem to do "official" any more, which helps.

---

-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

---

Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

I was thinking about this too, when i was trying to order mine.
There so many different retailers with hardly different designs and it makes ordering confusing for some.
If we could set up a distrobution network and allow people to order straight from the guys who push the innovation would be a big +.
im not saying that the retailers online dont know there stuff but some of the info here in the wiki differs from what is read on some websites.
Plus we could use the proceeds to get the word out and make this into a common household item.
It would really make sense, but then again i dont know all the laws governing this type of endeavor.
But im out in the centeral coast of california and i would be willing to help set something like this up state side.

Even if there was a Reprap.Org certification to give to some of these retailers so that someone who visits this site and wants to look up more info will see the Reprap logo or cert, and know that it is a genuine reprap and the information here in the forums and wiki is compatible with the printer they are looking at.

Also, on a side note:
There seems to be a lot of RepStraps out there with out the .stl files available.
I was under the impression that since this is an Open source type product, the license to use this tech states that any mods have to be published and documented so ever one could see it. In other words not proprietary.
Its probably just my mis understanding.

-E

Quote

I was under the impression that since this is an Open source type product, the license to use this tech states that any mods have to be published and documented so ever one could see it. In other words not proprietary.
Its probably just my mis understanding.

Yes, that's the theory and not a misunderstanding. In praktice, developers see publishing files as a burden. So they tend to avoid it, if it's just for saving the work required. They don't see the chance to receive further enhancements to their design from other developers.

Hardware open source doesn't work as well as software open source. Many people earn a lot of money by just downloading and printing/manufacturing parts. In the software world, such a behaviour is pointless. Nobody would pay money for downloading a package from a vendor instead of downloading it from the original site.

Additionally, mechanical designs are simple and easy to reverse-engineer compared to software designs. It's all to easy to start a similar project from scratch, and a lot of people do exactly this. Starting from scratch also means getting rid of the original licence, making proprietary stuff legal.

Even worse, if a developer invests a lot of time to create or enhance a design, he falls back behind the copy shops. Because these copy shops can invest that time into marketing, maintaining their shop, etc. . Users usually don't care who prints the parts for them, as long as they get the parts. They follow the marketing guy, as these are more visible.

The solution? I'm not sure. Generation 7 Electronics has now a licence with a non-commercial clause. It works well so far.

---

Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY