May the Foam be with you.

quite a few complains here about warping. why not printing on foam?
no heating at all, extruder skims the foam. parts bind to foam like there's no tomorrow. foam can be used many times, then flip over and use other face.
all credits to the digital dentist:
[forums.reprap.org]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2016 12:56PM by val c..

thats actually good for large scale printer like 400mmx400mm plus size, save energy and the headache on working out the heatbed

how is the bottom surface of the finish and how well the foam comes off?

With a title like that I was expecting to see a life size Yoda head...

I think with tall, small footprint parts like the tower or tube you printed, the foam may sag under the print's weight and it may tilt. Tall, small footprint parts are a problem for any printer...

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

Quote
the_digital_dentist
With a title like that I was expecting to see a life size Yoda head...

I think with tall, small footprint parts like the tower or tube you printed, the foam may sag under the print's weight and it may tilt. Tall, small footprint parts are a problem for any printer...

none of that happened.
might be possible though, on heavy parts with large footprint.

Quote
deaconfrost
thats actually good for large scale printer like 400mmx400mm plus size, save energy and the headache on working out the heatbed

how is the bottom surface of the finish and how well the foam comes off?

it is not smooth like when printed on glass, but the foam comes off easily. i would use a deburring tool.

some fresh pics of a freshly printed toy rocket for my son.
the part was printed on foam.

I have just added a few layers of masking tape, so there is a little cushioning, the surface finish isnt what i want but better than foam.

Why would you want "cushioning"?

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

Why Use Foam, Why use more than one layer of tape(because I have tape not foam), because I'm a beginner after good adhesion(no heatbed), 1 layer was ok, but I added a few more to give me a little wiggle room, without eh cusioning I might not get anything coming out the nozzle, I have not yet mastered the correct way to start things off with the required Z heights offset code, homing, as I have no end stops or sensors working yet, 0.2 could be too high, 0.1 might be better for me, so I just bring head low to the tape and start the print, if it was too low I would have nothing coming out, sometimes it is a little thin, so I can make a few parts to add to the machine, as time goes by i'll get round to doing other things to improve the start procedure. Better Bed(Mic6), I'm still using acrylic to support the heat plate one of the first parts I had made which will be retired when I get some access to better tools.

I dont have layer width settings and have read conflicting info on first layer height, if I do .28 for layers, I tried .32 for first layer, but also read it should be lower, I have links to both trains of thought, one comes from hints in Matter Control "it is often desirable to print a taller first layer for good adhesion" but in another guide it says the opposite.

but it is an early days experiment, and the current tape is not sticky enough for all parts, and can still lift, its not even blue but normal masking tape. Maybe it's because of the cushioning...

I'm not averse to trying some foam as long as it has a very fine structure, like that flower arranging stuff, but that might be just a little too crumbly.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2016 01:40AM by MechaBits.

foam cells are supposed to crumble under the combined effect of the nozzle compressing it, and said nozzle, being heated, passing that heat onto the foam and thus helping with the crumbling.
this is the whole idea when printing on foam: have the tip of the nozzle skim the foam surface, and the first layer will literally be embedded into it, ensuring a strong bond.
as for the foam structure, it is what it is, and as long as it works for me, it's all fine.
two immediate advantages stand out: no more heated bed (hardware, headaches, waiting time, hydro bill) and no warping whatsoever.
not one of the models I printed came off or warped during printing.

check this out

ABS no heat bed

I broke it trying to take it off, but I didn't actually give it time after print was finished and its hollow with only 0.8mm bottom which wouldn't help either

Quote
MechaBits
Why Use Foam, Why use more than one layer of tape(because I have tape not foam), because I'm a beginner after good adhesion(no heatbed), 1 layer was ok, but I added a few more to give me a little wiggle room, without eh cusioning I might not get anything coming out the nozzle, I have not yet mastered the correct way to start things off with the required Z heights offset code, homing, as I have no end stops or sensors working yet, 0.2 could be too high, 0.1 might be better for me, so I just bring head low to the tape and start the print, if it was too low I would have nothing coming out, sometimes it is a little thin, so I can make a few parts to add to the machine, as time goes by i'll get round to doing other things to improve the start procedure. Better Bed(Mic6), I'm still using acrylic to support the heat plate one of the first parts I had made which will be retired when I get some access to better tools.

I dont have layer width settings and have read conflicting info on first layer height, if I do .28 for layers, I tried .32 for first layer, but also read it should be lower, I have links to both trains of thought, one comes from hints in Matter Control "it is often desirable to print a taller first layer for good adhesion" but in another guide it says the opposite.

but it is an early days experiment, and the current tape is not sticky enough for all parts, and can still lift, its not even blue but normal masking tape. Maybe it's because of the cushioning...

I'm not averse to trying some foam as long as it has a very fine structure, like that flower arranging stuff, but that might be just a little too crumbly.

The foam being used was specifically chosen for high temperature resistance. PIR does not decompose or melt at extruder temperatures. Floral foam will melt (and probably release toxic fumes) as soon as the hot nozzle gets close to it. The foam isn't acting as a "cushion". The extruder injects molten plastic into open cells in the PIR foam (90% closed cell) which then hardens forming a mechanical bond between the print and the foam.

If you want prints to stick you need a flat, level surface for starters. I don't know if you can get that piling tape on top of tape. You shouldn't need cushioning because the nozzle should not touch the print surface. The layer thicknesses should be <=80% of nozzle diameter. Line widths should be 105%-170% of nozzle diameter (absolutely never smaller than the nozzle diameter). The idea is to get a squished flat layer so it has a lot of contact with the bed or the layer below. Solid fill lines should overlap a little (typically 15%) so there are no gaps between lines. Slic3r and Cura let you control all those settings. I use uniform thickness from first layer to last. There is no need to print the first layer extra thick, but print it slowly - 20-30 mm/sec. You can speed up the rest of the print.

Quote
deaconfrost
check this out
ABS no heat bed
I broke it trying to take it off, but I didn't actually give it time after print was finished and its hollow with only 0.8mm bottom which wouldn't help either

Nice, but since there's no mention of the bed material on either the youtube page or in your post, sort of useless.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

I got it from here

but I think I will return it for a refund, because it seems to me it is just high density polyethylene chopping board, in that case I can buy them far cheaper and feel like I been scam

If you want a build plate that does wonders, you can try Polycarbonate (clear). Like the expensive one you've got, I didn't manage to pull of parts without breaking. Perfect adhesion! You use your part with the printbed

I went out and bought a chopping board, and currently print PLA on it cold it needs to be a smooth surface, not the rough ones

the chopping board cost 5.99 in euro so about 8 dollars??

I've no idea what polymer it is, as I couldn't find and info about it but I don't think its polyethylene

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2016 04:09PM by deaconfrost.

May the chopping board be with you lol it worked

I just need to sand the whole thing down and evenly flat then I can try bigger parts

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2016 04:46PM by deaconfrost.

A kingspan type solid foam? or one with bigger balls

When I asked why foam, I meant for more than one reason, flat print yeah, and maybe a little wiggle room for an uneven bed,
and there seems to be plenty of wiggle room because no matter if first layer is 2.4 or 2.8 it still prints,
but i really havent got to the point of printing super critical parts,
tall or large heavy infill parts where warping becomes more of an issue
the print head can find its own level with foam if things are out on the bed(as it eventually does on warped parts),
but as I dont have the foam to hand I experimented with some extra layers of tape...while waiting for my wider tape to arrive
(50mm should hopefully stay flatter for longer, bearing in mind i'm not changing it after every print)
multiple layers is just me being over cautious, it was printing fine on one layer, and rather than have to clean off plate I just added some more, but i'd rather be printing direct to the aluminium, or kapton (but for pla maybe overkill)
I dont disagree with foam, and it was on the list of things to try at one stage(if I cant get by with tape like everyone else),
though I had forgotten it was PIR that was advised.

Still it looks like a bit of a pain to remove it, the example above looked more like polystyrene to me, white on white is better than white on black, but the surface finish i'd like is leaning more to the alu plate/ or glass,
how do you secure it to the bed, with tape? is it good for all materials/temps? maybe not for stuff that needs heated bed,
but today I got some 50mm wide tape rather than the thin stuff I had so should be a little easier to lay down, when I'm done with this roll, i'll try some foam I can probably live with the surface finish for some stuff, but perhaps the right chopping board
could give a better finish, but I had to nursemaid a 20 hour print the other day, this 3D printing sure does take it out of you,
no wonder everyone's chasing coreXY & higher speeds.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2016 04:50AM by MechaBits.

Tape, even in multiple layers, isn't the equivalent of foam.

You don't print on the surface of the foam, you bury the nozzle into the foam. There's no need to level the surface- the nozzle makes it's own level surface. It doesn't matter if the material you're printing normally prints on a heated surface. It will stick to the unheated foam because the molten plastic gets injected into voids in the foam (voids that don't exist in tape). That's the whole point of using the foam- you completely eliminate the need for heaters, power supplies, SSRs, and bed leveling. Printing on a raft eliminates the foam sticking to the bottom surface of the print.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2016 07:38PM by the_digital_dentist.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

No, I get they are not the same I dont remember saying they where, (i did manage to get the layers very flat and wanted to protect underneath surface/ if I went too low)
I get it doesn't need leveling, I get the fact you bury your print in it and your first layer is level, I just tried burying it in my masking tape,
it works, though perhaps not as good as foam, how much is this stuff?(the pictures above make the sheet/printer look big)
I dont yet get how you print parts that remove from a raft with a nice finnish, or how to not have the part warp at the air gap
and remove itself from the raft...not got that far but foam is on the list of things to try at some point when I figure which of my parts its suited to.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2016 08:15PM by MechaBits.

The OP's printer is very large.

[www.homedepot.com]

32 sqft for $15

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2016 08:14PM by the_digital_dentist.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

Yeah it's a beast...
So the foam is like kingspan, you take the foil off then(sometimes that could ruin the foam),
sure beats laying out perfect tape on a bed that size, with a 25mm wide roll,
can you do flexi materials on it? No heated bed for ABS sounds like a winner, though still need enclosure?

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2016 08:40PM by MechaBits.

Yes, you peel the foil/paper off. Peeling it won't do enough damage to the surface to affect your prints. If the surface does get damaged deeply for any reason, just sand it sort of smooth with coarse sandpaper and print on it.

Yes, you still need a warm enclosure to print ABS without delaminating.

I haven't tried flexible filament on it, but it's a good idea. I have some TPU filament- I'll try this weekend. I'd bet that it works fine, but there's no beating a test to know for sure.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

So I had a brainwave that will make the CoreXY i'm building a little easier to build,
I have 1x3030 for the back of the moving bed, which is will be where the motion is applied too,
so rather than go triple screws & stuff, I have this other thinner U shaped profile(3 sides of a rectangle U)
If I use 3 pieces of that, I can make a square slot for a sheet off foam to slide right into.
should mean i can have a cantilevered bed without too much trouble.... the penny is sinking.
lets hope they dont slap huge import tariffs on this stuff here in the UK, or it'll be back to the drawing board.

Quote
deaconfrost
check this out

ABS no heat bed

I broke it trying to take it off, but I didn't actually give it time after print was finished and its hollow with only 0.8mm bottom which wouldn't help either

what kind of plastic is that?

pla and pva support printed together with dual extruder.
if one is concerned with the quality of the part's bottom side, one can always use a raft.

Quote
MechaBits
No, I get they are not the same I dont remember saying they where, (i did manage to get the layers very flat and wanted to protect underneath surface/ if I went too low)
I get it doesn't need leveling, I get the fact you bury your print in it and your first layer is level, I just tried burying it in my masking tape,
it works, though perhaps not as good as foam, how much is this stuff?(the pictures above make the sheet/printer look big)
I dont yet get how you print parts that remove from a raft with a nice finnish, or how to not have the part warp at the air gap
and remove itself from the raft...not got that far but foam is on the list of things to try at some point when I figure which of my parts its suited to.

please see my previous post.

Quote
the_digital_dentist
Yes, you peel the foil/paper off. Peeling it won't do enough damage to the surface to affect your prints. If the surface does get damaged deeply for any reason, just sand it sort of smooth with coarse sandpaper and print on it.

Yes, you still need a warm enclosure to print ABS without delaminating.

I haven't tried flexible filament on it, but it's a good idea. I have some TPU filament- I'll try this weekend. I'd bet that it works fine, but there's no beating a test to know for sure.

i don't see why it wouldn't work.
as you explained earlier, the whole thing rests on a thermo chemical reaction between the molten plastic and the foam.
please keep us posted.

Quote
val c.

Quote
deaconfrost
check this out

ABS no heat bed

I broke it trying to take it off, but I didn't actually give it time after print was finished and its hollow with only 0.8mm bottom which wouldn't help either

what kind of plastic is that?

I'm not sure I couldn't get an answer as I need a 500mm x 500mm and the shop looking for stupid money for it, 180 euro for 400mm x 400mm, heres where I got it

build plate

I'll be using plastic primer on the large printer and in the mean time I will send the plate off to find out what it is.

here's another print of abs 60% infill

ABS no heat bed

I also tested PETG which works really well. the PLA print quality are super on this plate

Quote
deaconfrost

Quote
val c.

Quote
deaconfrost
check this out

ABS no heat bed

I broke it trying to take it off, but I didn't actually give it time after print was finished and its hollow with only 0.8mm bottom which wouldn't help either

what kind of plastic is that?

I'm not sure I couldn't get an answer as I need a 500mm x 500mm and the shop looking for stupid money for it, 180 euro for 400mm x 400mm, heres where I got it

build plate

I'll be using plastic primer on the large printer and in the mean time I will send the plate off to find out what it is.

here's another print of abs 60% infill

ABS no heat bed

I also tested PETG which works really well. the PLA print quality are super on this plate

wow, 180 euros for a 400x400?
wonder what my bed would cost, at 1332x1276

yea I think he's away off with the fairies

I'm just gonna try out plastic primer spray on the 500 x 500 aluminium sheet or glass, I think that should do me, I extended the bed and I'm not even going to ask that mad man for a price, I get the plate checked out I'm betting its polyethylene

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2016 02:19PM by deaconfrost.