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Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract

Posted by brucehvn 
Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 06, 2018 05:29AM
Ok, this is pretty weird. First of all, the basics. Prusa I3 variant, Marlin 2.0.x-bugfix (latest and version from about 3 weeks ago)., Ramps 1.4.

I've been printing happily along for quite some time now and then last night, something strange started happening. Mid print, the printer would act like the z axis stopped going up and the nozzle would end up dragging through gouging into whatever was printed so far. It happened on one print last night. The object is about 6mm thick and the problem started showing about 1/2 way into the print. Tonight, on a totally different print which is about 30mm tall, it seemed to happen after printing about 10mm. Then on a second attempt, it started noticeably failing at about 15mm (though that might not be the case based on what I found). On the first print (the 6mm object), I did some testing afterwards and found the printer was about 4mm off from where the printer thought the z-axis was. On the first print of the 30mm object, it was about 8mm off from where it thought it was.

Before the final attempt, I swapped out the stepper driver on the z-axis and made sure the voltage was adjusted to what the previous one was.

In all cases, whatever was happening was affecting both z motors as the carriage didn't end up higher on one side.

For the third attempt I watched it printing the whole time. What I saw was that on every layer change, I would see the z-axis spin to move it to the next level, but before starting to print, it would tick back a little bit. I wasn't sure if that's what it's always done or not, so I kept watching. The 30mm object prints almost just a plain rectangle for about the first 8mm or so. Then after that, the layers have some more complex features, so it does multiple retracts/unretracts during a single layer. That's when I was able to see what was happening. On every retract, the z-axis would move down some, and on unretract, it would also move the carriage down.

After I bailed out of the print, I then heated up the hotend and manually issued retracts/unretracts (G10, G11) from the RepetierServer command line input. I could easily duplicate the problem there. I updated my Marlin bugfix 2.0 code to the latest, but it still has the same issue.

On normal extrusion, it doesn't affect the z motors at all, only on retract/unretract.

It sounds like there might be electrical interference of some kind. But the wires for the z motors don't run anywhere near the extruder stepper wires. The z motors are mounted at the bottom, and the extruder is on the x carriage. the closest the wires are to each other is at the ramps board itself.

I'm not sure what else to try. Could the ramps board develop some kind of issue that will cause electrical problems like this? I'm pretty much stuck until I figure this out. I hope someone has some ideas.
Re: Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 08, 2018 10:02AM
I'm completely baffled now. Tonight I tried replacing the RAMPS board, but that didn't fix the issue. I then replaced the stepper driver for the extruder and tried again, but still no go. Then I replaced the Mega board, but it's still the same. I tried adjusting the stepper voltage both up and down on the extruder, but no change.

It's like the z-axis is wired to the same connector as the extruder. I've had a chance to watch this many times now, and the exact amount of time the extruder is moving during retract/unretract, the z motors are turning as well. The z motors are always turning in the same direction regardless of which way the extruder is moving. But during a normal extrude, no problem. The z motors don't move a bit.

I don't know what else I can swap out. The only piece of hardware left is the LCD display.

I've ruled out a firmware issue since I was printing with the same version of Marlin since about Aug 26.
Re: Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 09, 2018 02:12AM
Maybe something went wrong with hardware retraction? What, if you send G1 E-5 F### instead?
As a general advice, it's always useful to erase the EEprom before flashing a new Marlin version.

HTH
Olaf
Re: Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 09, 2018 04:45AM
Quote
o_lampe
Maybe something went wrong with hardware retraction? What, if you send G1 E-5 F### instead?
As a general advice, it's always useful to erase the EEprom before flashing a new Marlin version.

HTH
Olaf

Hi Olaf,

Doing a manual retraction still turns the z motors. In fact, doing a manual extract with a very slow speed (2 mm/s), just turns the z motors slowly. That's the same speed I use when doing a normal manual extrusion and that doesn't turn the motors.

Tonight, I started by swapping out the LCD display but no change. Then I unplugged the extruder motor from the ramps board and the z motors still turned on retract/unretract. I then removed the extruder stepper driver and it still didn't change anything. So, I think that rules out any electrical interference from the cables or a bad extruder motor.

How would I go about clearing the EEPROM? I do a M502/M500 after flashing a new version of the firmware. If there's another way to clear the EEPROM, I'm open to trying that. I did replace the mega board last night and the one I installed had never been flashed with Marlin before, so I doubt that's the problem.
Re: Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 09, 2018 05:35AM
got back to basics ramps test firmware [reprap.org]

modify it so it only moves E (ie remove lines that say X,Y,Z and Q step or direction)

Does Z still move?
yes, its a hardware issue
no, its a firmware issue.

Nb this also turn on heaters.. untemperature controlled..... so probably best to unplug those. or also remove that code.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2018 05:36AM by Dust.
Re: Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 09, 2018 06:17AM
Thanks Dust.

I have that basic firmware and I think I've already commented the heaters, etc., as I've only ever used it for stepper motor testing in the past.

In reviewing the Marlin open issues, it seems there are some about this very behavior that seem to point to UBL as a cause. Sure enough, if I turn off UBL, then the problem seems to go away.

I'm very confused by the whole thing though because according to the issues I saw, Roxy merged a fix on Aug 10. But I didn't download the bugfix-2.0.x branch until Aug 26. I also printed several objects between Aug 26 and Sept. 6 or 7 when this problem showed up. I'm about 99.9% positive that UBL was activated the whole time.

But for now, it looks like I might have a workaround until it gets fixed for good.

Bruce
Re: Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 10, 2018 12:56AM
Marlin will never be fixed sad smiley
Do you use z-lift during retraction and UBL at the same time?
Re: Z Axis lowering on retract/unretract
September 10, 2018 11:48PM
Quote
o_lampe
Marlin will never be fixed sad smiley
Do you use z-lift during retraction and UBL at the same time?

Yes, I'm sure Marlin will always be a work in progress. Kind of like my house...

I was not using z-lift during retraction. One issue I saw at the marlin github said the issue was related to UBL plus no z-lift, but even when I added some z-lift, it still behaved the same.
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