Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 28, 2019 04:34AM
Hi all,

I have just come across a very interesting topic while searching for some other info and thought it would be nice to share.

A paper published in 2015 by Geert Keteleer, a professor from the University of Antwerpen describes a method to use salt water to adhere PLA to a heated bed. Check out this link to his page with a PDF containing the instructions:
[www.uantwerpen.be]

Has anyone seen this before and tried it out?


http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
VDX
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 28, 2019 06:20AM
... interesting ... until now I've only found, that salt was used to separate particles with SIS fabbing ("Selective Inhibition Sintering") - when printing with salt solution on a powder bed and heating it to melt/fuse the particles, the salt will prevent fusing in the wetted/printed areas ...


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 28, 2019 07:01AM
Quote
VDX
... interesting ... until now I've only found, that salt was used to separate particles with SIS fabbing ("Selective Inhibition Sintering") - when printing with salt solution on a powder bed and heating it to melt/fuse the particles, the salt will prevent fusing in the wetted/printed areas ...

Ah, also very interesting! I am never going to use the salt water method, but I do think it is interesting to people printing on bare glass. I use Kapton tape and have optimal adhesion each time without issues. However, black filament (from FormFutura) seems to need more cleaning in between. Clear PLA keeps just adhering better and better each time on kapton.


http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 28, 2019 08:03AM
I think it's extremely unwise to get salt anywhere near any metal that may corrode (bearings/nuts/bolts/aluminum frame/circuit board traces/component leads) regardless of whether it helps prints stick to the bed. There are many other, more benign ways to get prints to stick, especially PLA.

Putting a thin layer of PEI on the bed works for many materials and doesn't risk destroying your printer in the process.

PLA is such an awful material, other than the fact that it's easy to print, why would anyone use it? PLA prints have to be kept in such a mild environment that they're practically useless for most purposes. They absorb moisture from the air and become brittle and you can't leave them near any source of heat. I've seen several posts on reddit from people who left their printers sitting in a parked car for a couple hours only to discover that all the PLA parts in them had softened and distorted, ruining the printer. Doh!


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 29, 2019 01:13PM
Quote
the_digital_dentist
I think it's extremely unwise to get salt anywhere near any metal that may corrode (bearings/nuts/bolts/aluminum frame/circuit board traces/component leads) regardless of whether it helps prints stick to the bed. There are many other, more benign ways to get prints to stick, especially PLA.

Putting a thin layer of PEI on the bed works for many materials and doesn't risk destroying your printer in the process.

PLA is such an awful material, other than the fact that it's easy to print, why would anyone use it? PLA prints have to be kept in such a mild environment that they're practically useless for most purposes. They absorb moisture from the air and become brittle and you can't leave them near any source of heat. I've seen several posts on reddit from people who left their printers sitting in a parked car for a couple hours only to discover that all the PLA parts in them had softened and distorted, ruining the printer. Doh!

PLA is plant-based and for the vast majority of hobbyist dabblers that means when it is tossed into the trash PLA will simply dissolve eventually back into its basic plant form with some dye around it. This is probably a really good thing for most 3D printer enthusiasts because it does not add to the horrific plastic pollution proliferation seen around the world.

I use it for toys and demos, I use PETG or ABS for real tools.

IMO,
DLC


Kits: He3D K200 Kossel, Folgertech Kossel 2020 upgraded E3Dv6, Anet A8 upgraded E3Dv6, Tevo Tarantula enhanced parts and dual-head
Scratch: Large bed Cartesian, Linear slide Delta, Maker-Beam XL Micro Delta
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 29, 2019 03:10PM
Quote
the_digital_dentist
PLA prints have to be kept in such a mild environment that they're practically useless for most purposes.

Nonsense. I have numerous 3D printed PLA items out in the real world.... sunlight, frosts, rain, etc. The worst thing is that the colour fades. For example, 3 years ago when I printed a mount for my gate latch mount in PLA, and which has been out in the real world ever since with NO issues.
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 29, 2019 03:39PM
I wouldn't trust PLA in "the real world" to do anything that matters.

The folks who keep printing tugboats and toys and other throw away trinkets tell themselves that it's OK because the PLA will biodegrade. Well, maybe, but probably not. Biodegradability(?) of PLA
If you really don't want to contribute to the plastic trash problem, don't print throw-away crap out of any material you can't eat.

While we're on the topic of plastic trash, I find that I often have to add sacrificial parts to the print to ensure good quality in the part I am trying to print. I usually just end up adding a cylinder a few cm away from the main print to give the extruder something to do while the main print cools a little. Now I'm trying to delay printing until I have multiple items to print so that I don't have to print so many sacrificial parts. It won't eliminate sacrificial parts completely (unless the parts being printed are all the same height), but it should cut down on the number of them. Now if I can come up with some sort of sacrificial part that is useful and won't get thrown away...


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 29, 2019 06:00PM
Well. That just sucked all the air out of the room.
Eventually all of our bubbles get burst. Time for a new hobby.
I am going to back off on the use of my printers for anything but essentials.

DLC


Kits: He3D K200 Kossel, Folgertech Kossel 2020 upgraded E3Dv6, Anet A8 upgraded E3Dv6, Tevo Tarantula enhanced parts and dual-head
Scratch: Large bed Cartesian, Linear slide Delta, Maker-Beam XL Micro Delta
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 29, 2019 10:41PM
I look at it this way: Every hobby involves generating some pollution/trash. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Take comfort in the fact that the couple kg of trash you produce with your 3D printer every year is an infinitesimal fraction of the total plastic waste that's produced. All the hobby 3D printers in the world don't add up to 0.001% of the plastic trash produced every year.

If it makes you feel better, take an hour or two to gather up plastic waste from the side of a road (there's plenty there) and put it into a recycling bin. That makes your hobby plastic-trash-neutral so you can sleep at night (while your printer is running).

Most of the stuff I print has some useful function. I use ABS specifically because it is likely to last a long time while it performs that function. The better it is designed and the longer it can serve it's designed purpose, the longer one of my printed objects will stay out of a landfill.

When I display my printer publicly, I used to print little toy things to give away (stretchy bracelets, keyfobs, etc). But if all people ever see is small stuff, they get to thinking that all you can do with a 3D printer is print little bits of plastic junk. Now I print a single large item instead and take my box of old parts- early prototypes, failed prints, etc., to give away. Kids have great imaginations and find ways to play with them regardless of shape or size. I find people seem much more interested in seeing a big print, especially when everyone else with a 3D printer is printing small stuff to give away. I usually get quite a crowd around the machine as a big print is finishing. I usually give that big print away to whoever is around or whoever expressed interest in it before it finished. If it's a two day event, I will run one or two day-long prints.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2019 07:40AM by the_digital_dentist.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 30, 2019 05:00AM
Quote
the_digital_dentist

If it makes you feel better, take an hour or two to gather up plastic waste from the side of a road (there's plenty there) and put it into a recycling bin. That makes your hobby plastic-trash-neutral so you can sleep at night (while your printer is running).

Ha, I do this daily. This sunday there's another gathering of people and we're going to clean the beach smiling smiley

Besides that, I have to keep telling people that PLA doesn't biodegrade. It needs special treatment to be recycled sadly. Most people still think PLA can be composted, the media is to blame as they tell unconfirmed BS on tv and in the news. Some tech enthusiasts preaching about the future while most of the time they're journalists that have read something somewhere and these self proclaimed 'techies' don't even know how to configure firmware or design, print and build their own machines. When you confront them with facts they just blow it away and act as if you're disturbing the conference etc etc etc.

But the bottom line: don't quit your hobby indeed. Do something else instead that adds value in the waste-production stream.


http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 30, 2019 11:52AM
Quote
Ohmarinus
Quote
the_digital_dentist

If it makes you feel better, take an hour or two to gather up plastic waste from the side of a road (there's plenty there) and put it into a recycling bin. That makes your hobby plastic-trash-neutral so you can sleep at night (while your printer is running).

Ha, I do this daily. This sunday there's another gathering of people and we're going to clean the beach smiling smiley

Besides that, I have to keep telling people that PLA doesn't biodegrade. It needs special treatment to be recycled sadly. Most people still think PLA can be composted, the media is to blame as they tell unconfirmed BS on tv and in the news. Some tech enthusiasts preaching about the future while most of the time they're journalists that have read something somewhere and these self proclaimed 'techies' don't even know how to configure firmware or design, print and build their own machines. When you confront them with facts they just blow it away and act as if you're disturbing the conference etc etc etc.

But the bottom line: don't quit your hobby indeed. Do something else instead that adds value in the waste-production stream.

Oh, I won't quit, but the quite a bit of shine has been lost. Regardless, I already do that other stuff about picking up plastic, recycling, etc.
Here I thought that my PLA was compostable, or at least biodegradable. But it isn't - At least it is carbon neutral, unlike the petrol-based plastics. I can at least take that as a good thing.

It just feels like every time we think we're actually doing good, it turns out what somebody out there perverts the intent and we're actually NOT. Re: plastic recycling. It turns out we (at least the USA) is just dumping plastic trash in poorer Eastern countries where shysters take the good bits to make money and throw the rest into their neighbors back yard or dump it in the ocean. Now I feel like I should not recycle plastic and just put it in my _own_ back yard landfills. And here I spent all that time cleaning my plastic so that it isn't stinky trash and easier to recycle. Turns out I've feel like I wasted my time, or more likely, all those people that put the wrong stuff in the recycle cancel out my "good" deeds. Depressing.

I'm working hard on getting my glass half-full again!

DLC


Kits: He3D K200 Kossel, Folgertech Kossel 2020 upgraded E3Dv6, Anet A8 upgraded E3Dv6, Tevo Tarantula enhanced parts and dual-head
Scratch: Large bed Cartesian, Linear slide Delta, Maker-Beam XL Micro Delta
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
July 30, 2019 12:21PM
[www.youtube.com]

As for CO2, consider the fortunes made by Al Gore and other doomsday gurus plus their lifestyle.


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
August 01, 2019 12:21AM
Yes 3D printer is adding to the plastic problem we have created for the world, but it can also reduce the problem if properly used.

We can do this by printing a new plastic part to replace that broken plastic part that would have otherwise meant the entire what-ever-it-is we're fixing would have been trashed if it weren't for our 3D printing a replacement plastic part winking smiley
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
August 01, 2019 01:19AM
Quote
Pippy
Yes 3D printer is adding to the plastic problem we have created for the world, but it can also reduce the problem if properly used.

We can do this by printing a new plastic part to replace that broken plastic part that would have otherwise meant the entire what-ever-it-is we're fixing would have been trashed if it weren't for our 3D printing a replacement plastic part winking smiley

A few days ago I just saved an old lawn mower ! The plastic throttle lever broke, no spare part anymore (Caldor brand, remember this store ?) I made one simpler and even stronger !


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Salt water bed adhesion technique for PLA
August 01, 2019 02:25PM
Quote
Pippy
Yes 3D printer is adding to the plastic problem we have created for the world, but it can also reduce the problem if properly used.

We can do this by printing a new plastic part to replace that broken plastic part that would have otherwise meant the entire what-ever-it-is we're fixing would have been trashed if it weren't for our 3D printing a replacement plastic part winking smiley

This is one of my favorite things to do - repair and re-purpose. Where I grew up, you fixed things or went without. It's a hard habit to break.

DLC


Kits: He3D K200 Kossel, Folgertech Kossel 2020 upgraded E3Dv6, Anet A8 upgraded E3Dv6, Tevo Tarantula enhanced parts and dual-head
Scratch: Large bed Cartesian, Linear slide Delta, Maker-Beam XL Micro Delta
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