Fixing RepRap's 3 big problems at the same time

Has the administrators of RepRap ever considered an Auction/Tender System in parallel with the forum? There are a few open source Tender/Auction systems from which RepRap could choose that are licensed under the Mozilla Public License, so they would not conflict with the Open source philosophy. I personally believe it would solve a few problems that have plagued RepRap from it's inception:

1. Outside of "doing the right thing" there is very little reason to replicate your printer. The 60+ hours of printing just doesn't get done. I feel that even if it was 30 hours it would suffer the same fate.

2. People can not get the RP parts for Darwin or Mendel. Every day I see a new person that registers on this site, says they want parts, then we NEVER see them again, because after further reading they realize NOONE is getting parts.

3. You can FEEL the lack of funding that RepRap suffers from. There are so many ways that RepRap could improve if RepRap.org had an actual funding stream. Imagine contests for hardware, prizes for replication, funding of RP factories, outreach to developed nations and schools.

I am currently selling RP parts on Ebay, and will pay 8% commision to Ebay, for access to a HUGE community that will not want my parts. Or I again could pay 3.5% plus a 20 cent listing fee to sell on Etsy, but that is not an auction so either you either end up over charging people and they never buy the part, or you under charge and you can't keep the store full. Either way we end up paying a fee to a company that does not care about THIS community. I think there could be a better way.

In a Tender system, instead of going to the Wanted forum and give a generic "1 set of Mendel RP wanted in North Carolina", you can go into the tender system and say you will pay 3 dollars a peice for the vertexes, or 7 dollars for the x-axis carriage. It lets you see what they are going for and it lets you show how much you are really interested in the parts.

On the Supply side, say I own a Makerbot or Darwin, and want to buy a set of electronics to finish my Mendel. I can go into the Tender, see who is offering the most for what pieces, print off 175 dollars worth of parts, and use my paypal account to buy electronics from Digikey or Makerbot.com. No cash out of my hand I just got my electronics, and someone got the parts they wanted.

For the community it allows RepRap.org to charge a 3-5% fee for administrating the Auction or Tender (At this point tender would likely be more civilized because of the huge demand for parts, I would hate to see how high some of the parts could get). It also allows RepRap.org to do what it was designed to do, encourage replication. There are plenty of people out there that want mendel/darwin parts BADLY, but they can't get them. There are also many broke/tight owners of RepRap/RepStrap, that would not spend 60+ hours of their time to GIVE a set away, especially when they might break a 20-40 dollar nozzle and burn through 20 dollars of filament, not to mention their time. But on the other hand if they looked at the tender and someone with a Mcwire DESPERATELY wants a PLA X carriage, they would be more than happy to make a few bucks printing it between their own projects.

But most of all it help the community because it would let RepRap.org have the funding to create websites like the moderators seem to want. It would let us keep the fees we pay within the community. Honestly, just as much as a website like Thingiverse was bound to happen eventually, so is something like what I am talking about. I would just prefer the money go to support Ardian and the rest of the core development team, instead of a RepStrap company that decides to get in front of this problem

The website below has a lot of scripts for Auctions and Tenders that are all open source. Surely one of them would work.

[www.opensourcescripts.com]

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

spacexula, I agree that the current marketplace is hideously inefficient and unscaleable, and that we need forum software. I'm not a purist on open-source vs commercial, although the former are more easily tied to people's forum/wiki identities, which solves and enforces trust and reputation issues. It also bootstraps user energy into the wiki, so I don't have to.

So we'll do it. I agree regarding the generic details of how it would work, that's a bikeshed problem.

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Regarding auction funds -> RRRF, a 3% tax sounds reasonable and unobjectionable.

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Now, coming around to certain minor details of how to spend RRRF funds and where the energy into upgrading the website will come from, and the future and purpose of the RepRap website, I have some thoughts on these matters, and don't mind discussing them in public. But many of them are half-baked, and others of them are deep, and some are fundamental RepRap agitprop and community issues.

Since running the website seems to be a "Library Administration, Announcements, and Policy" matter, I'll teleport this thread over there in a day.

Also, I need to go work on unforking right now. I'll spend a while with my thoughts on these matters and get back to you when I have time in a day or five for a good answer.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 03:04AM by SebastienBailard.

I think your tender idea is on target. Too bad Paypal will rake in it's percentage.

This:
"I would be willing to pay $500 USD (including shipping) to anyone that can provide a full set of Mendel parts."

was posted in For Sale today in Pinco's thread. Unfortunately no one is selling. Just talking. Someone wants Mendel parts really bad to pay $500 for them. I would pay for Mendel parts too. Just not that much.

I think the rrrf store in conjunction with the forum needs to take on this Auction/Tender System and possibly become a clearing house for parts again. Is there actually a person running the store now? Anyone need a job? I'm sure Zach is too busy at Makerbot to be interested.

I think your tender idea is on target. Too bad Paypal will rake in it's percentage.

Theres's a lot of "bankers" out there, and they always make sure they get their cut. PayPal has a first mover advantage, so they're big. (And they don't do everything using the GPL, so that means a RepRap script can't accidentally bring them under the RepRap umbrella.)

It's hard to avoid, and I don't know if it worth dealing with a credit card processor as well as paypal. Luckily, we have some very entrepreneurial people inside the reprap mailing list who are good at setting up websites. Unluckily, they tend to forget to park those sites at newwebsite.reprap.org, but they will change or be changed. Because we're all RepRap developers here. It's offical policy.

I think the rrrf store in conjunction with the forum needs to take on this Auction/Tender System and possibly become a clearing house for parts again. Is there actually a person running the store now? Anyone need a job? I'm sure Zach is too busy at Makerbot to be interested.

This may be. Once I unfork the 'official' developer mailing list back into this forum, the rest of us, RepRap user-developers, can bring it up if we care to. It's like drying your clothes on a line outside. You can get a good look them to see if there are any stains that need sorting out, the sunlight helps keep down 'crud', and you can ask the hard questions, like "Why am I missing a sock? Did someone put it in the wrong place." "Sock" being projects, parts, arts, and docs. I'm not suggesting financial naughtiness.

It's hygenic, clean, efficient, and fun.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 02:03PM by SebastienBailard.

Upon more reflection, we could actually do a "test tender" her on this board within the Wanted thread. I think it would be interesting to see the response. Basically the format would work something like this.

You must request all Mendel parts BY NAME, so if you want a full set of mendel parts you must list ALL the mendel parts in your post, and how much you would pay to get them seperately, no tenders for full sets, only for components. Then In the Responses you would have people responding only if they can provide the part NOW. Payment would be handled outside of RepRap.org, so unforunately you would not have revenue for the organization, nor would you have the security of having RepRap act as an intermediary. I will post what this would look like here in a minute. I think this could actually turn out fun.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 03:23PM by spacexula.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

**EXAMPLE**

Hey guyes, I am wanting a full set of Mendel Parts. Following is my Tender. Please respond in this thread if you have the parts, or wish to counter offer.

$5 bed-spring_4off.par
$10 circuit-board-bracket-m3_4off.par
$10 circuit-board-spacer-m4_2off.par
$10 drive-pulley_3off.par
$10 frame-vertex_6off.par
$10 pinch-wheel-bracket-NEMA17_604-bearing_1off.par
$10 x-180-z-bearing-plate_2off.par
$10 x-360-z-bearing-plate_2off.par
$10 x-360-z-bearing-plate-mirror_2off.par
$10 x-axis-side-plate-nut-jig_2off.par
$10 x-bar-clamp-m3_6off.par
$10 x-bar-clamp-m4_4off.par
$10 x-carriage-belt-clamp_2off.par
$10$40 x-carriage-lower_1off.par
$10$40 x-carriage-upper_1off.par
$10 x-end-bracket_2off.par
$10 xlr-bracket_1off.par
$10 x-motor-bracket-spacer_2off.par
$10 x-vert-drive-nut-trap_4off.par
$10 x-vert-drive-side-plate-180-end_2off.par
$10 x-vert-drive-side-plate-360-end_2off.par
$10 y-bar-clamp_10off.par
$10 y-bearing-180-inner_2off.par
$10 y-bearing-180-outer-left_1off.par
$10 y-bearing-180-outer-right_1off.par
$10 y-bearing-360-inner_2off.par
$10 y-bearing-360-outer-left_1off.par
$10 y-bearing-360-outer-right_1off.par
$10 y-belt-clamp_2off.par
$10 y-idler-bracket_1off.par
$10 y-motor-bracket_1off.par
$10 z-axis-opto-spring_1off.aoi
$10 z-bar-top-clamp_4off.par
$10 z-driven-pulley_2off.par
$10 z-drive-pulley-rim_4off.par
$10 z-leadscrew-base_2off.par
$10 z-leadscrew-base-bar-clamp_2off.par
$10 z-motor-bracket_1off.par
$10 z-opto-bracket_1off.par
$10 z-tensioner_1off.par

I will pay $10 shipping for the items, I will pay an additional $5 for any set made out of non warped ABS. Open to machined or cast parts.

*edit* Upped the price on some of the parts, I am in a hurry now
*edit* No I will not pay up front, and yes I would be more than happy to confirm over the phone.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 03:35PM by spacexula.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

> $10 circuit-board-bracket-m3_4off.par
> $10 circuit-board-spacer-m4_2off.par
> $10 frame-vertex_6off.par

I am machineing these peices, can sell you the vertexes for $30 for a set, and the board spacers for $10, deal?

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

spacexula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > $10 circuit-board-bracket-m3_4off.par
> > $10 circuit-board-spacer-m4_2off.par
> > $10 frame-vertex_6off.par
>
> I am machineing these peices, can sell you the
> vertexes for $30 for a set, and the board spacers
> for $10, deal?

I just PMed you, will take the $30 for the vertexes so I can get started, and the other 20 for the spacers.

Updated the Tender

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

> $10 y-motor-bracket_1off.par
> $10 z-axis-opto-spring_1off.aoi
> $10 z-bar-top-clamp_4off.par
> $10 z-driven-pulley_2off.par
> $10 z-drive-pulley-rim_4off.par
> $10 z-leadscrew-base_2off.par
> $10 z-leadscrew-base-bar-clamp_2off.par
> $10 z-motor-bracket_1off.par
> $10 z-opto-bracket_1off.par
> $10 z-tensioner_1off.par

I need the 100 bearings for Vxb, I have printed up these peices, when I get the order confirmation from VXD I will send them on your way.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

I think this way of doing it works better in the wanted forum for several reasons.

-Most people are currently requesting "full rp sets", You can not machine a full RP set, but a tender would allow the Machiners to easily provide the machinable peices to the people that want full sets.

-It allows people to barter for needed materials for their RepRap as payment for some of the parts.

-It will drive traffic to this site. If I post a tender I WILL get responses from the people machining the parts NOW. That means very quickly you will have actual barter for the parts happening because MANY people will have 1/4 of a Mendel completed.

-Also personally I am having some good luck on Ebay selling the few mendel components I am selling now (holding off on the rest, might move to Esty, or here if I can get interest), surely this allows a more open way for the exchange to happen, without me having to inflate the cost my %11 because of the fees I have to pay.

-It allows moderators to KNOW who is replicating, and who has the parts. Good information to have. (refrain of Sebastian screaming "Document the build on this forum!!! resounding in my ears).

-It would just be fun to watch the parts moving. You would be able to see the money the replicators are making. Basicly it would let the owners of RP and milling equipment build their Mendels with no cash out of pocket.

-The Tender could also include the Lasercut and mechanical parts, and the people who are building the kits.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

It sounds like what they're trying to do at the 100k Garages Job Board: [100kgarages.com]

I think the key is to have a system where people can offer/bid on individual pieces from multiple sources. Buying things piecemeal kills you with shipping, but distributing it efficiently I think it's the only way to do it since it's so hard for one person to make a complete set. Instead of expecting one person to devote 70 hours, you'd go to 20 people who print a few parts here and there in their spare time.

What is needed is a streamlined website app to organize it. Doing it in a forum would be a mess of confusion.

The market is still undeveloped and young, with people selling singleton parts, or hypothetical folk collating the singleton parts and selling full mendels, etc., along with people running the numbers, making a daughter mendel, and then doubling their production rate.

Once we've got CNC heads and moldmaking, the replication rate goes crazy.

What is needed is a streamlined website app to organize it. Doing it in a forum would be a mess of confusion.

Yup. Once the old devs in the mailing list meet you user-devs, you can propose it.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

I just looked over the 100k Garages Job Board. While I think it is a great idea, not everybody who has a garage has a business license.

Regards,

Brian



gr0k Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It sounds like what they're trying to do at the
> 100k Garages Job Board:
> [100kgarages.com]
>
> I think the key is to have a system where people
> can offer/bid on individual pieces from multiple
> sources. Buying things piecemeal kills you with
> shipping, but distributing it efficiently I think
> it's the only way to do it since it's so hard for
> one person to make a complete set. Instead of
> expecting one person to devote 70 hours, you'd go
> to 20 people who print a few parts here and there
> in their spare time.
>
> What is needed is a streamlined website app to
> organize it. Doing it in a forum would be a mess
> of confusion.

-- moved topic --

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

I agree, the forums aren't going to work for this. Basically we need a non-profit version of eBay for a specific kind of product, so we could house all developers under one tent and share the costs of doing business, while tracking buyer/seller abuse.

The only problem is that this approach is going to lead to a group of people who are less likely to share how they dropped the price of their widgets. This might be especially true for people making compatible but not RepRap derived parts. In fact, I believe this has already happened. Greed leads to closed development and closed development leads to the dark side.

The RepRap community has an invested interest in supporting companies who practice full disclosure of their products IP. However I would take that a step further, and say that the community also has an invested interest in full disclosure of business practices. We want to know the best way to make widget x, even if it means loosing that competitive edge in providing the cheapest parts and thus make the most profit.


Anyways, I'm suggesting basically a non-profit business arm that sells parts at cut-throat prices and releases all production practices to the public.

I'm still working on the details, but I would like to be a part of a company or business that gives away every bit of information it has with the idea of producing public support. I know I would buy from someone who I could walk through exactly how the product is made and know how much it actually costs him and what his time is worth.