Unforking committee - Let's fix the website!
Posted by SebastienBailard
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Re: Post-mediawiki January 20, 2010 01:12AM |
Ok. Not to talk cross-threads or be repetitive, but I would say there is a need for a branched release system. For example, a stable branch and a development branch.
The stable branch is locked down, nobody can do anything but basically proofread and maybe clarify the pages. It has complete, specific, and accurate materials lists, with detailed step-by-step assembly instructions. Purchasing locations would be a nice touch, but they're not as important as knowing what you need to purchase and then what to do with it.
The development branch is basically a (hopefully more organized) version of the current mediawiki. Lots of ideas being thrown around, things changing all the time, everything can be half documented, etc...
Maybe even a "hopes for the future" branch, where developers communicate with non-developers about what features are important (is support material important? how about a higher resolution? printing new materials? printing multiple materials? driving total cost down?)
Blogs, a thingiverse-like section, social-networking, and all the rest of the community-parts should be separated from the above. They can be interconnected, but need to remain distinctly separate at the same time.
On a totally separate note, what about a RepRap marketplace? Buy and sell kits for building RepRaps, especially RP parts (like the sections of the forum). I think raw materials like spools of ABS filament would do well. You could even sell things like extruders, since they can be very tricky to make. Maybe even fully assembled RepRaps, if there's a market for them.
So, what that boils down to then is that my interpretation of a new website would be this:
A CMS simply needs to integrate all that.
A slightly different variation of that would be with the {Materials Lists} linking right to parts.reprap.org, which then has a section for RP parts next to the sections for Electronics and Fasteners. This RP parts section would then link to the object-database.
I encourage you guys to copy and paste that section for your own posts. There's some parts of it that I haven't figured out, and other parts that I simply don't like yet. It's probably missing some parts too. One big thing is that I assumed that subdomains are free. If this is not the case, it needs to be reworked a bit then.
I guess that's more than two cents, sorry
-Hypoon
The stable branch is locked down, nobody can do anything but basically proofread and maybe clarify the pages. It has complete, specific, and accurate materials lists, with detailed step-by-step assembly instructions. Purchasing locations would be a nice touch, but they're not as important as knowing what you need to purchase and then what to do with it.
The development branch is basically a (hopefully more organized) version of the current mediawiki. Lots of ideas being thrown around, things changing all the time, everything can be half documented, etc...
Maybe even a "hopes for the future" branch, where developers communicate with non-developers about what features are important (is support material important? how about a higher resolution? printing new materials? printing multiple materials? driving total cost down?)
Blogs, a thingiverse-like section, social-networking, and all the rest of the community-parts should be separated from the above. They can be interconnected, but need to remain distinctly separate at the same time.
On a totally separate note, what about a RepRap marketplace? Buy and sell kits for building RepRaps, especially RP parts (like the sections of the forum). I think raw materials like spools of ABS filament would do well. You could even sell things like extruders, since they can be very tricky to make. Maybe even fully assembled RepRaps, if there's a market for them.
So, what that boils down to then is that my interpretation of a new website would be this:
reprap.org (almost entirely about Mendel) :
Overview
Materials lists
Non-RP parts (link to parts.reprap.org)
RP parts (link to object-db)
Build Instructions
archive.reprap.org (for Darwin) :
Overview
Materials lists
Non-RP parts (link to parts.reprap.org)
RP parts (link to object-db)
Build Instructions
parts.reprap.org (for non-RP parts) :
Lists for Darwin
(broken down further, ex. Electronics... Fasteners...)
Lists for Mendel
(broken down further, ex. Electronics... Fasteners...)
Other lists
(organized by project)
Where to buy
dev.reprap.org (Wiki where everyone exchanges ideas about the next main RepRap) :
Overview (draft)
Materials Lists (draft)
Non-RP parts (link to parts.reprap.org)
RP parts (link to object-db)
Build Instructions (draft)
(plus lots of other pages for various ideas being thrown around)
community.reprap.org (basically just a portal to the below) :
Blogs (maybe blogs.reprap.org?)
Forums (forum.reprap.org?)
Object-Database (Thingiverse-like, maybe objdb.reprap.org?)
(with the ability to group parts together for projects)
Personal Machines (perhaps variations.reprap.org?)
I haven't come up with a real nice way of organizing these yet.
RepRap Marketplace (maybe shop.reprap.org?)
(not a forum, instead more of an e-commerce site, kinda like e-bay)
A CMS simply needs to integrate all that.
A slightly different variation of that would be with the {Materials Lists} linking right to parts.reprap.org, which then has a section for RP parts next to the sections for Electronics and Fasteners. This RP parts section would then link to the object-database.
I encourage you guys to copy and paste that section for your own posts. There's some parts of it that I haven't figured out, and other parts that I simply don't like yet. It's probably missing some parts too. One big thing is that I assumed that subdomains are free. If this is not the case, it needs to be reworked a bit then.
I guess that's more than two cents, sorry
-Hypoon
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Re: Post-mediawiki January 20, 2010 09:33PM |
I'm stuck a between unfold's point of view and SebastienBailard's. I understand and agree with SebastienBaliard in that having most RepRap related stuff hosted on RepRap.org is very beneficial because information only needs to be in one place.
unfold, I feel that many users would benefit from having a place to host their ideas. The difference between this and arduino.cc is that Arduino's are not quite as variable as RepRaps are. As far as Arduinos are concerned, I did a lot of looking around before buying, and although there are several variations on the Arduino, few (if any) of them are dramatic improvements. For example, the Gen3 electronics are designed specifically for 3d printing, and are not nearly as useful as standard Arduinos for other purposes.
The closest analog that I can get is to say that if someone devised their own type of plastic that only they had access to, then it probably not be appropriate to host a custom extruder for that plastic on RepRap.org's website. Such a custom extruder wouldn't be useful for anybody but its maker, similar to how the Generation 3 Electronics wouldn't be useful to most browsers of the arduino.cc.
Naturally though, such a situation is less likely for RepRap than for Arduino, so I side with SebastienBailard on that fact. Let's host pretty much as much as we can on-site.
Buzz: I pretty much agree with everything you said, and I suspect most everyone else will too. I doubt there will be much opposition to them: they're right along the lines of what the plan is anyway.
On another note, SebastienBailard, I really disagree with using subdomains quite so freely. I think giving each project (mendel, darwin, its own subdomain is a bit excessive. Also, I don't think subdomains are easily generated automatically (but it is definitely possible). Don't forget that you can have a directory structure on a website. You don't have to use subdomains to separate things
. What do you think of this:
Note: Everything's tentative. I got tired of question marks and the word "maybe," just assume that everything has "maybe?" written after it.
NOTE: whoa, posted way to early. Hold on a few minutes while I finish it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 09:34PM by Hypoon.
unfold, I feel that many users would benefit from having a place to host their ideas. The difference between this and arduino.cc is that Arduino's are not quite as variable as RepRaps are. As far as Arduinos are concerned, I did a lot of looking around before buying, and although there are several variations on the Arduino, few (if any) of them are dramatic improvements. For example, the Gen3 electronics are designed specifically for 3d printing, and are not nearly as useful as standard Arduinos for other purposes.
The closest analog that I can get is to say that if someone devised their own type of plastic that only they had access to, then it probably not be appropriate to host a custom extruder for that plastic on RepRap.org's website. Such a custom extruder wouldn't be useful for anybody but its maker, similar to how the Generation 3 Electronics wouldn't be useful to most browsers of the arduino.cc.
Naturally though, such a situation is less likely for RepRap than for Arduino, so I side with SebastienBailard on that fact. Let's host pretty much as much as we can on-site.
Buzz: I pretty much agree with everything you said, and I suspect most everyone else will too. I doubt there will be much opposition to them: they're right along the lines of what the plan is anyway.
On another note, SebastienBailard, I really disagree with using subdomains quite so freely. I think giving each project (mendel, darwin, its own subdomain is a bit excessive. Also, I don't think subdomains are easily generated automatically (but it is definitely possible). Don't forget that you can have a directory structure on a website. You don't have to use subdomains to separate things
. What do you think of this:Note: Everything's tentative. I got tired of question marks and the word "maybe," just assume that everything has "maybe?" written after it.
NOTE: whoa, posted way to early. Hold on a few minutes while I finish it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 09:34PM by Hypoon.
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Unforking committee - maybe just one RepRap.org site is the best policy? Discuss: January 20, 2010 10:38PM |
On another note, SebastienBailard, I really disagree with using subdomains quite so freely. I think giving each project (mendel, darwin, its own subdomain is a bit excessive. Also, I don't think subdomains are easily generated automatically (but it is definitely possible). Don't forget that you can have a directory structure on a website. You don't have to use subdomains to separate things winking smiley. What do you think of this?
I agree. But we need subdomains for the people who will want them as homepages. Darwin, Mendel, not so much. But the RepOlaRap fellow might want one, and I want to give the SpoolHead team a place to blog so that they can link to it on their own pages. Otherwise, they maintain their own blog, and things get de-synced, and then we've got versioning issues.
I have no strong feelings about having mendel.reprap.org, but I want spoolhead.reprap.org to encourage those guys in their forum.
unfold and I disagree a little bit about what can go into the wiki. That's a fascinating subject we can hash out ad infinatum in another thread. Or over on [objects.reprap.org] It is a derail of this thread, and I'm going to moderate (devowel, delete) any more pro or anti thingiverse stuff. Because this is where we figure out how to unfork the website(s) and community.
We need "Parts" functionality for RBS.
This thread is an un-untangleable mix of discussion about unforking past, present, and future RepRap.org website stuff. And it looks like I'm "senior librarian, pro tem" unless adrian or zach want to be, plus I never get to abuse my forum admin powers due to pesky developer-ethics. So I've changed the name of the thread.
I agree. But we need subdomains for the people who will want them as homepages. Darwin, Mendel, not so much. But the RepOlaRap fellow might want one, and I want to give the SpoolHead team a place to blog so that they can link to it on their own pages. Otherwise, they maintain their own blog, and things get de-synced, and then we've got versioning issues.
I have no strong feelings about having mendel.reprap.org, but I want spoolhead.reprap.org to encourage those guys in their forum.
unfold and I disagree a little bit about what can go into the wiki. That's a fascinating subject we can hash out ad infinatum in another thread. Or over on [objects.reprap.org] It is a derail of this thread, and I'm going to moderate (devowel, delete) any more pro or anti thingiverse stuff. Because this is where we figure out how to unfork the website(s) and community.
We need "Parts" functionality for RBS.
This thread is an un-untangleable mix of discussion about unforking past, present, and future RepRap.org website stuff. And it looks like I'm "senior librarian, pro tem" unless adrian or zach want to be, plus I never get to abuse my forum admin powers due to pesky developer-ethics. So I've changed the name of the thread.
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Re: Unforking committee - maybe just one RepRap.org site is the best policy? Discuss: January 20, 2010 11:26PM |
This thread flickered around a bit, while I made sure Hyphoon's proposal of Drupal had its own thread.
I'm not going to do that again, because it is waaaaay too much work. People can bring up new proposals where they like, hopefully in other new threads where we can focus on them. Because new proposals are needed.
In other news, I'd like to point out this: a dynamic book that is generated by the current "true" documentation. So we don't go nuts entering updates into the pdf, and dealing with versioning. Blender pulled it off using mediawiki (I think): Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro
[en.wikibooks.org]
I don't know what extensions they had running, or how they did it, but I assume it is straightforward. And I assume that there is a good mediawiki to pdf extension.
Regarding locking down, protecting the Mendel pages, I'd like to assure everyone that Mediawiki is really good at that.
We can lock it down so only "core-developer" team people can change it, as we're doing now. But we can also flag it as "Patrolled", so that silly or careless edits by RepRap-naive users immediately pop up on patroller's radar.
It's the only way wikipedia could survive, and it will work well for us.
I'm going to go write up my twiki->mediawiki notes for the folk I'm working with, and then get back to this thread, and back to unforking.
I'm not going to do that again, because it is waaaaay too much work. People can bring up new proposals where they like, hopefully in other new threads where we can focus on them. Because new proposals are needed.
In other news, I'd like to point out this: a dynamic book that is generated by the current "true" documentation. So we don't go nuts entering updates into the pdf, and dealing with versioning. Blender pulled it off using mediawiki (I think): Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro
[en.wikibooks.org]
I don't know what extensions they had running, or how they did it, but I assume it is straightforward. And I assume that there is a good mediawiki to pdf extension.
Regarding locking down, protecting the Mendel pages, I'd like to assure everyone that Mediawiki is really good at that.
We can lock it down so only "core-developer" team people can change it, as we're doing now. But we can also flag it as "Patrolled", so that silly or careless edits by RepRap-naive users immediately pop up on patroller's radar.
It's the only way wikipedia could survive, and it will work well for us.
I'm going to go write up my twiki->mediawiki notes for the folk I'm working with, and then get back to this thread, and back to unforking.
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Re: Unforking committee - Let's fix the website! January 23, 2010 09:21PM |
Hey guys, I've been absent from this conversation for a day or two now. I got quite frustrated when a glitch/bug in Phorum caused me to lose a very lengthy edit to that above post. Rather than redo it all, I'm creating a website that I'll give only a few people the links to, since it's running on my home internet connection (I can't have the whole public connecting to my poor DSL line at the same time).
I think it's much better to keep your contributions here where they'll get read. I'm already tracking so many conversations {email, mailing list, phorum, phorum pm, blog post, reprap wiki talk tab} and forks and such that me and us other user-developers in here may not get a chance to hear your thoughts if they're elsewhere.
It may be best to do them up in a non-phorum editor, walk away, make some tea, ... reread, and then post.
More straightforward then saying "these are my thoughts on my blog on this matter" [Link].
As a hypothetical, imagine if all of us did the same: [Link][Link_Sebastien_Blog][Link_Misterbunny_blog], etc. The conversation (or debate?) would fragment.
Short version: By contributing in here at the "Unforking Policy Coal Face", you've got the best chance to be heard. And since you're a user-developer, you deserve to be heard.
I think it's much better to keep your contributions here where they'll get read. I'm already tracking so many conversations {email, mailing list, phorum, phorum pm, blog post, reprap wiki talk tab} and forks and such that me and us other user-developers in here may not get a chance to hear your thoughts if they're elsewhere.
It may be best to do them up in a non-phorum editor, walk away, make some tea, ... reread, and then post.
More straightforward then saying "these are my thoughts on my blog on this matter" [Link].
As a hypothetical, imagine if all of us did the same: [Link][Link_Sebastien_Blog][Link_Misterbunny_blog], etc. The conversation (or debate?) would fragment.
Short version: By contributing in here at the "Unforking Policy Coal Face", you've got the best chance to be heard. And since you're a user-developer, you deserve to be heard.
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Re: Unforking committee - Let's fix the website! January 23, 2010 10:01PM |
Also, I might add, many other reprap user-devs are 'hiding' over on the internal mailing list. Only minimum 4-5? know what's going on in here. And some who may be lurking don't want to get immersed in a messy, occasionally emotional, and occasionally technically complicated discussion.
Which means they'll have their own thoughts on this ongoing unforking and where do we put documentation and parts debate. When we bring it to their attention, after they rejoin the forum, via the addition of the mailing list in a few weeks.
Mind you, it will be interesting reading contributions in this RepRap.org forum from 'official' developers who habitually don't contribute projects, parts, arts, docs to the wiki, instead choosing to upload stuff to 'website-of-the-month'.
But I think that's the whole reason for this debate, really.
That and the six 10,000s problem.
[objects.reprap.org]
Entangled with this is the fact that the RepRap and other forum, wiki, svn, git?, and blogs are completely siloed from each other, upload wise. Phorum uploads don't make it to the wiki right now, projects and repraps put up on thingiverse, google 3D warehouse, secondlife, etc., don't get automatically mirrored or spidered into RepRap.org yet, etc.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 10:03PM by SebastienBailard.
Which means they'll have their own thoughts on this ongoing unforking and where do we put documentation and parts debate. When we bring it to their attention, after they rejoin the forum, via the addition of the mailing list in a few weeks.
Mind you, it will be interesting reading contributions in this RepRap.org forum from 'official' developers who habitually don't contribute projects, parts, arts, docs to the wiki, instead choosing to upload stuff to 'website-of-the-month'.
But I think that's the whole reason for this debate, really.
That and the six 10,000s problem.
[objects.reprap.org]
Entangled with this is the fact that the RepRap and other forum, wiki, svn, git?, and blogs are completely siloed from each other, upload wise. Phorum uploads don't make it to the wiki right now, projects and repraps put up on thingiverse, google 3D warehouse, secondlife, etc., don't get automatically mirrored or spidered into RepRap.org yet, etc.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 10:03PM by SebastienBailard.
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