Appropriate commercial promotion...

I realize that being in an open community, lots of people (myself included) are endeavoring to not only contribute to the project, but also to see some commercial success out of it.

I have been frequently making changes and updates to the Development:McWire page on the objects.reprap.org wiki. As I was doing it though, I came across this recent change to the McWire page on the older wiki:

[reprap.org]
"This project is no longer actively developed. Get yourself a MakerBot instead."

Now, I greatly appreciate Zach's work, and I know that MakerBot has been stated as a way to get going, but this seems like a conflict of interest and somewhat an abuse of power. Utilizing that page for what is, essentially, an advertisement for a commercial product, and drawing people away from what is, right now, the only well-documented, complete RepStrap (Yes, I know that's arguable in itself.)

So comes the question: What level of promotion is okay? I know on the site we link to several commercial vendors, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. What I do see wrong is statements that suggest one solution is better than another, or the only solution. For instance, one statement I saw read along the lines of "...If you want to buy a kit, he's the best person to buy one from..."

Am I the only one bothered by this?

Opinions need a name next to them or they don't belong IMHO. If a conflict of interest exists between the person making the referral and the the benifitting party: it should be disclosed. If they chose not to do so: they expose themselves to the risk of being outted and shamed for astroturfing.

I'm on the core team and will be looking into this. I hadn't seen this page before.

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

Though I facetiously advocated for that in the forums, I swear it wasn't me. I do think that the mcwire page needs some sort of disclaimer that it probably cannot be used to build a mendel, at least as is, or at least noting that to date no one has successfully done so without without extensive work and cost beyond what is reflected in the posted instructions.

Perhaps:

"There is substantial debate about whether the slow speed of the moving planes that are driven by the threaded rod coupled with the fast rate of extrusion by the pinch wheel model extruder are a workable combination to print all of the parts necessary for a mendel. Please consult the user forums for more detailed information on practical limitations of the mcwire."

If it was really being "honest" also:

"To build a mendel currently the most practical paths are to receive/purchase your printed parts from someone with a functioning 3D printer (Commercially Protovantage) or to purchase one of the commercial 3D printers from MakerBot, BitsFromBytes, ... There is not currently in official way to bootstrap a mendel without access to printed parts though several research projects existing to do include the mcwire design and ..."

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 09:36PM by goinreverse.

goinreverse Wrote:
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> Though I facetiously advocated for that in the
> forums, I swear it wasn't me.

I doubt anyone thought it was you. The page was last edited by Zach, so I feel pretty confident that it was him.

>I do think that the
> mcwire page needs some sort of disclaimer that it
> probably cannot be used to build a mendel, at
> least as is, or at least noting that to date no
> one has successfully done so without without
> extensive work and cost beyond what is reflected
> in the posted instructions.

I think this will be rounded out as the older Twiki stuff is transitioned over to objects.reprap.org. Once the pages are in a place where everyone has the opportunity to make edits and changes to the page, we'll see a lot more notation of the practicality, and process of building a repstrap printer. As many others, I'm making efforts to come up with a better design that actually is capable of getting people going. I need to finish my first printer though.

This change was just made recently, 8 days ago. I have been to this page several times in the last week, but haven't been paying much attention to the top, as I'm deep in the bowels of the thing.

NOw that this has been brought to my attention, I have removed the commercial link from that page, and added a link to the 'objects' page, so users can get further info on it.
Given that Zach wrote the entire original mcwire page from revision 1.1 through 1.15, I don't have a problem with leaving it at that. He's been much more of an asset to the Reprap that many people realise. Makerbot are not an enemy, they are a friend. :-)

..oh, yes, don't forget that despite being commercialized by Makerbot the "Cupcake CNC" IS a RepStrap, and a very capable and documented one.

I'd probably say its more documented and is definitely more capable than the McWire, so I'd even go so far as to say the Link that Zach put in there was an accurate representation of the Evolution of popular repStrap/s.

[wiki.makerbot.com]
[svn.makerbot.com]
[www.thingiverse.com]

If you want to build one "from scratch", it's OK, you don't have to buy one.

I guess I'm thinking about it slightly differently. I don't know of anybody who has used the McWire route to repstrap to either a reprap machine or a stable McWire that is useful. From what I've seen our user community is wasting a huge amount of energy going down the McWire {in my opinion, anyway} blind alley. I think we're losing a lot of people by even mentioning McWire as an option.

Suppose we either eliminate the McWire page or overtly discourage people going that route. Do we have another alternative repstrap route to recommend to people? Really, is buying a MakerBot or Rapman the only way people can get into the game? I know that Ponoko, for the moment, has problems but hear that Vik is designing a laser cut Darwin for them. What do we tell people right now, though? Do we just go ahead and endorse MakerBot and Rapman?

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

I tend to agree with you Forrest. While I am all for commercial development based on RepRap, and I have no problem with people selling or buying them, I think we need to have an inexpensive, easy-to-build, reliable RepStrap.

I've started a new thread for McWire Successor development and a wiki page. I feel like we need to figure out a replacement, and figure it out fast. I'm willing to take the lead on this, but I should warn that I'm still in the process of building my first printer, and it is (ironically) a McWire.

McWire Successor Thread: [dev.forums.reprap.org]
McWire Successor Wiki page: [objects.reprap.org]

Tonok and Kulitorum both printed their Mendels on McWires. I don't know how fast, but there are at least two RepRaps thanks to the design.

johnnyr Wrote:
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> Tonok and Kulitorum both printed their Mendels on
> McWires. I don't know how fast, but there are at
> least two RepRaps thanks to the design.

I stand corrected. It would be interesting to hear about their experience to see if it would be a route that we should generally promote.

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

Did they document how they solved some of the blocking issues? I have a mcwire right here and as documented I can't possibly see how to print some of the mendel parts? Which extruder did they use?

Let along that it would take at least 200 hours printing...

Looking at the situation, I am thinking that a laser cut Mendel may be the way to go. I know that I am using a laser cut Rapman, a Darwin clone, and the acrylic parts of that machine are slowly getting replaced with stronger and simpler parts that I print out of ABS.

[www.bitsfrombytes.com]

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2010 01:39AM by Forrest Higgs.

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

Goinreverse, Tonok used the makerbot extruder parts, I think Kulitorum made his own from PEEK. I have a makerbot and have printed 2 mendel sets. The blocking is not solved I think, more expected for me until we work out the next generation extruders. Both guys we are talking about are in the #reprap IRC channel often.

Sorry Forrest, didn't mean to be rude or so off topic.

It would be great if tonok could indicate how he overcame the makerbot extruder extrudes too fast for the threaded rod problem, if the mcwire actually works that's great but this seems a little second or third hand on details.

Not sure on actual statistics but 1 or 2 people who have succeeded means there is about a 98 or 99% failure rate...

If someone has printed a complete Mendel on a McWire it would be very useful to get that person's Skeinforge or RepRap Host preferences and add it to the Wiki.

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Darwin clone, Gen 2 electronics, Arduino Duemilanove w/ AtMega328, 5D Firmware, Pinchwheel extruder
[www.codeerrors.com]

To account for the slower screw driven axis in combination with the "makerbot dc gearmotor" I set the extruder speed (flowrate) to a low PWM value (between 180 and 200) and I set the extrusion width (ratio) to a higher value (2.3)

Skeinforge:
Fill -> Infill Width over Thickness (ratio): 2.3
Carve -> Perimeter Width over Thickness (ratio): 2.3
Carve -> Layer Thickness (mm): 0.6

For a McWire it's better to use a Stepper Driven extruder that can run at slower speeds that are needed.

My McWire
[picasaweb.google.com]

I don't really recommend the McWire because it's too slow. I recommend making one of the Wooden Mendel variations.

johnnyr Wrote:
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>
> Sorry Forrest, didn't mean to be rude or so off
> topic.
>
Heavens! No offense taken.

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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

Thomas A. Edison

Buzz has now fixed the old wiki page. MakerBot plug removed, and a redirect to here added at the top:

[objects.reprap.org]

- A.

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