Too many forums now. Subforums or use message subjects

Zach is the one who started this with a recent posting... but I have plenty to say on the matter

1) Users groups really need to be hosted on another PAGE or consolidated. I see no reason to have cities and should be regions... or frankly just one forum for all users groups. Message threads are really the way to communicate to the interested parties, and the subject of the message alone can imply the geography.

2) A lot of the mass of technical forums need a hierarchy. Does this BBS not support subforums? See how Sub-forums are done here: www.webhostingtalk.com

3) Does this forum not support Sticky Postings? The marketplace is a mess, WAY too many groups. How about we start with a SINGLE marketplace forum and encourage people to put WANTED or FOR OFFER int he message subject? In similar note the legal disclaimer doesn't need a FORUM - it could be a single Sticky Message _in_ the marketplace forum.

4) I'm really glad that Darwin and McWire got their own forum... but the multiple extrusion forums and electronics forums seem confusing. Extruders really are independent of the Darwin or McWire design and I think deserve their own forum... but no reason to break it down into so many topics (Gooey, Inkjet, etc)

5) A SINGLE Off-Topic forum can catch all the rest. The Software off-topic is getting zero posts.

6) Forum Administration should be pushed to the bottom, top placement is more important. Darwin should be moved up high.

7) Is "Microcontrollers" forum supposed to be for the Ardrino electronics? It is too generic. I suggest two forums: "non-supported RepRap Electronics" and "Supported RepRap electronics"


I know this isn't easy, trying to help.

i've done a bunch of work on the forums to consolidate stuff. hopefully its an improvement
Forum Updates

* Removed 'off topic chat'. All threads moved to 'General'.
* Removed unused private RRRF forum.
* Combined all Electronics subforums into one main Electronics forum.
* Combined all Mechanics subforums into one main Mechanics forum.
* Combined all Fabrication and Materials subforums into one main Fabrication

I havent touched the objects or marketplace forums, as those are sebastiens doing, but we should consolidate those down to a single forum each as well.

>i've done a bunch of work on the forums to consolidate stuff. hopefully its an
>improvement

Not really. I'm very angry with you making broad changes without previous discussion or warning.

I'll come back in a bit to lay out my thoughts on this. Please do not nuke anything else in my absence.

So that's why Google reader is giving me stuff I have already read.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

*RoundSparrow Wrote:
>
> 1) Users groups really need to be hosted on
> another PAGE or consolidated. I see no reason to
> have cities and should be regions... or frankly
> just one forum for all users groups.

You're right that it's a big mess right now having everything on the front page.

I'll move user groups to another page once we upgrade the forum software from
phorum 5.1.19 to 5.2.6a (next week or two).

In the case of Texas, I set up a few different cities
because I expected to have a bunch of Austin users after getting a
whole mess of names and email addresses from mostly Austinites. I'll
try emailing them again.

> Message threads are really the way to communicate to the
> interested parties, and the subject of the message
> alone can imply the geography.
>
Maybe, but many people can be very bad at composing the subjects of their messages. Having more folders and forums makes it easier for latecomers to find old posts which are relevant - otherwise they might end up buried a few pages deep with a cryptic. (This is a general problem, not just a geography one.)

> 2) A lot of the mass of technical forums need a
> hierarchy. Does this BBS not support subforums?
> See how Sub-forums are done here:
> www.webhostingtalk.com
>

Phorum 5.1.19 displays subforums poorly.
5.2.6a should improve matters.

> 3) Does this forum not support Sticky Postings?
> The marketplace is a mess, WAY too many groups.
> How about we start with a SINGLE marketplace forum
> and encourage people to put WANTED or FOR OFFER
> int he message subject? In similar note the legal
> disclaimer doesn't need a FORUM - it could be a
> single Sticky Message _in_ the marketplace forum.
>

I've cleaned it up. It was a mess. I have a bad tendency to
try to create functionality we don't need yet.

> 4) I'm really glad that Darwin and McWire got
> their own forum... but the multiple extrusion
> forums and electronics forums seem confusing.
> Extruders really are independent of the Darwin or
> McWire design and I think deserve their own
> forum... but no reason to break it down into so
> many topics (Gooey, Inkjet, etc)
>

Agreed.

> 5) A SINGLE Off-Topic forum can catch all the
> rest. The Software off-topic is getting zero
> posts.
>

Agreed. That was foolish of me.

> 6) Forum Administration should be pushed to the
> bottom, top placement is more important. Darwin
> should be moved up high.
>
> 7) Is "Microcontrollers" forum supposed to be for
> the Ardrino electronics? It is too generic. I
> suggest two forums: "non-supported RepRap
> Electronics" and "Supported RepRap electronics"
>
>
> I know this isn't easy, trying to help.

Nah, if it needs fixing, we need to know.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2008 12:04AM by SebastienBailard.

> i've done a bunch of work on the forums to consolidate
> stuff. hopefully its an improvement

Yes and no. I did not appreciate being surprised in this manner.

> Forum Updates

>* Removed 'off topic chat'. All threads moved to 'General'.

I strongly disagree with this move. Some people, myself included,
like to post random bullshit onto the site; webcomics, humourous
videos, 3D printers in popular media, etc. 'off topic chat' is a good
container for such things, which keeps the interesting, fun,
irrelevant stuff like "Wii Hack and Mods" from acting as noise in a useful channel.

Please let me know if you object to me recreating it?

>* Removed unused private RRRF forum.

Makes sense.

>* Combined all Electronics subforums into one main Electronics forum.

Ok.

>* Combined all Mechanics subforums into one main Mechanics forum.

I disagree. I believe it is useful to maybe have a 'Darwin', 'McWire',
and 'everything else'. Having dedicated forums for things makes it
easier for latecomers to find old posts which are relevant - otherwise
they might end up buried a few pages deep with a cryptic subject.
i.e. "It don't work!" or "Where do I buy stuff?"

>* Combined all Fabrication and Materials subforums into one main Fabrication

We may want to carve them up once we have forum software which supports
hierarchical forums. This may not be a crucial issue once we have a lot more posts.

>I havent touched the objects or marketplace forums, as those are
>sebastiens doing, but we should consolidate those down to a single
>forum each as well.

I've cleaned up objects and marketplace. They were too crowded with
empty forums. Next time I'll wait to add new forums when there is demand.

Hopefully the newer version of the forum software will solve our
usability problems. I think it will but would like to see it in
action. I _think_ it does nested folders in a sensible manner:
[www.phorum.org]

nophead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So that's why Google reader is giving me stuff I
> have already read.

Yeah, I noticed the same thing.

BTW, i consider all this progress and normal growing pains. Even some conflicts on the team.... it is normal and healthy part of a distributed / open source project. Hopefully we will reach a reasonable set of compromise

Thanks guys.

Ok, the elimination of the "Darwin" forum I consider a pretty big mistake.

I think this forum really needs to focus on TWO major divides:

1) BUILDING and USING RepRap
2) Everything else



RepRap Building and Using
===============================
Word choice is difficult... but basically I see three RepRap pre-construction / construction / help with / support forums:

1. Electronics. Given the high amount of soldering and add-on possibilities for electronics - it deserves own forum separate from Darwin.
2. Extruder and extruding. It is already pretty clear that people are using the Darwin extruder with non-Darwin design. And there are optional add-on extruders (support material, etc). So that points to own extruder.
3. Darwin Frame (everything but Electronics or Extruder). Look, Darwin IS REPRAP! You guys [core team] need to treat it more like a supported and released product. Anything that isn't electronics or Extruder that relates to Darwin - should go here.


Suggestion 1
====================
main: Reprap Construction and Usage
Sub: RepRap Electronics
sub: RepRap Extruder
sub: Darwin Frame Construction
sub: Using the RepRap / General Support


Suggestion 2
====================
main: Darwin
sub: Assembling Darwin
sub: Using Darwin
main: Research and Development (not yet supported)
sub: Official projects
sub: Unofficial and All Else


This is not perfect, but gives some idea of what I'm tyring to get at. Darwin really needs to be more clearly presented as an official,supported,core of RepRap. At least that is my view [that it is being hidden under too much discussion of alternates that often seem in conflict with RepRap project objectives]

here's the problem:

we dont have nearly enough forum traffic to support more than 10 forums, and even our current number is pushing it. dividing forums up into tiny categorized subforums means that the posts are scattered and makes information even harder to find.

we had the last setup for about a month, and most forums had less than 10 posts in them. i personally missed quite a few important posts, simply because it wouldnt show me new posts in the forums that i didnt frequent. this is a major problem.

finally, sebastien: you didnt really consult anyone when you made your changes that made the forums hard to navigate.

from here on out, we should keep the forums consolidated, and only make changes when they are *required*, and not to solve some hierarchical categorization itch. it makes things much too complex for the task at hand.

Darwin still seems lost in this forum. So much activity going on that is NOT Darwin related... makes me wonder what RepRap is really about

RepRap is about building an open source 3D printer. ideally it will be able to print copies of itself. darwin is one route that looks promising.

I thought RepRap was about building a Replicating machine that could also make other items and 3D printing was only been used as it seems the obvious/ only way to go.

I got into the project purely for a cheap 3D printer but very soon was taken over by the design challenges involved in self replication, affordabilty and accessibility especially in 3rd world areas.

As such I would like to see a Darwin & Mendel forum return.

But the main thing I would like is to agree a format and change it as infrequently as possible.

---

Ian
[www.bitsfrombytes.com]

I second Ian's remarks. Forum changes are a pain and should only be made occasionally. Not a huge deal but only a minor annoyance.

Demented

I agree that the forums got away there for a while. But I think that RoundSparrow has a point that since Darwin/Mendel are so different from Seedling that separate forum for those unique things might be a better idea.

But less not change things real fast until some discussion has been done here as to the best method to do that.

---

Bob Teeter
"What Box?"

>RepRap is about building an open source 3D printer. ideally it will be able to print copies of itself.

No, from all the definitions on the front page of the wiki it HAS to be self replicating, otherwise it is not a RepRap.

It wont change the world without exponential growth and it wont grow exponentially without self replication. It will just be another home made machine project like all the ones on CNCZone.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Hi nophead,

... it's the definition of RepStrap, what changed the things for me ...

In the last thirty years i built at home (and sometimens at job too) several cartesian robots for laser-cutting and optimized some low-cost-CNC-mills for higher accuracy too.

Every of them was more capable then the actual Darwin/Mendel/Seedling-design in accuracy and speed, but mostly a bit expensiver

So it's not a problem to build a capable extruding/dispensing machine or convert any 3D-machine or a 2D-plotter with an elevating table to a 3D-printer ...

But the idea behind reprap changes all - when you point into real self-replicating, then you have to change most of the basic-techniques of 'normal' 3D-systems.

With the idea of 'real' RepRapping in mind i'm now in a complete new stage of developing - and it's much more fun, then 'simply build a robot' or convert an old 3D-system ...

Viktor

There are too many forums. RSS doesn't work well because it loses the hierarchy. Reading new posts via the website is slow because you have to go in and out and in and out and mark read and ...

I liked Usenet. Whatever happened to Usenet? How come everything has to be done on the web now?

I think you can get individual RSS feeds from each forum as well as the top level one that includes all of them.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I support the idea that differentiating the official (self-replicating)
project from other offshoot designs would be very helpful, and that
distinction has been lost, as others have pointed out.

I too disliked the huge number of forums, but I think the approach of
forums that are very generic (like "Electronics" and "Mechanics") goes
too far the other way, since there *are* now offshoot designs!

Personally, I'd prefer to be able to participate in forums that relate
to subsystems I have or expect to have, and easily ignore (or read
only when I have plenty of spare time) forums about other variant
projects, long term future ideas, off-topic random musings, etc. It
seems to me that having multiple forums at all is really designed to
allow users/readers to do exactly that kind of thing -- selection of
a subset of forums based on the interest and priorities of the reader.
The current forum set doesn't readily permit this, since anyone doing
anything at all even vaguely related to the Reprap project is likely
to need software, electronics and mechanics (for example).

I'm not planning to propose a complete new hierarchy at this point,
much less unilaterally impose one. But I do think we should (as a
team working *together*, if at all possible!) try to come up with an
approach that usefully distinguishes between the current Reprap
project and other related-but-unofficial 3D fabrication work (which
may not even have replication as a goal).

One thought I do have is that it might be worth putting one type of
electronics and their associated firmware in a single forum, as they
will inevitably be used together. So "Software" becomes better
defined as "Host software", or something along those lines?

Should we consider something closer to:

* General/Reprappers (is there a useful distinction between these?)
* Reprap Host Software
* Reprap Electronics and Firmware
* Other Electronics and Firmware
* Reprap Mechanics
* Other Mechanics
* Reprap Extruders

Whether off-topic stuff goes in General/Reprappers or in its own
folder doesn't worry me too much; I think I'd re-create Off-Topic
given the choice. I'd suggest not creating "Other Host Software"
until such time as there is such a thing. (Hmm, I *did* just
propose a set of forums! Oh well!).

I think there *is* enough traffic to support seven forums as above,
but I don't have any hard data to back that opinion up with! I think
getting this straightened out before we announce v1.0 is probably
fairly important, as I suspect that the announcement will bring in a
new influx of beginners to these forums. So IMO we have *some* time,
but not forever, to decide on any further change. No need to rush,
but let's not ignore it altogether, either.

On project definition: there is a "Rep" at the front of the name
"Reprap" for a reason. Ignoring replication takes you (IMO) away
from this project as a whole.

Jonathan

---

---

Jonathan

Jonathon,
Yes I think that all makes sense but perhaps the Seedling stuff deserves its own forums since it is not RepRap but it is RepStrap and so should not be demoted to other. Also its electronics are pretty much interchangeable so they can be used for RepRap or RepStrap. There are probably at least as many, if not more people building it as well.

Chris

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]