Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library!
Posted by SebastienBailard
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! February 18, 2008 04:11PM |
Sourceforge seems to be getting rather old, slow and clunky nowadays. I also tend to associate it with huge numbers of dead projects, but that's just a personal negative view 
I've not heard of Savane or LibreSource before, but GForge hasn't ever looked particularly enticing to me. Perhaps having seen various places use it, badly, has not made the good impression that it deserves.
I'm personally in favour of something wiki like, for sheer flexibility, but with a much less fluffy, friendly, everyone-can-edit permissions model. The core parts of the site should be locked down, and access would be granted after you've proven yourself elsewhere, but creating or editting content in the open areas of the site, or whatever.
On the face of it, a CMS *looks* like a good idea, but having spent some time hacking around with them, let me just say 'don't do it!'. Most off-the-shelf CMS packages are oriented towards blog/news type places, and using them for other tasks is rather tortuous (feel free to browse Drupal's documentation, for example). -- edit... plone looks somewhat more grownup than most CMSes out there, at least.
I'll second the above suggestion of not having a rigid hierarchial file store or search system. A good tagging system is a very valuable thing indeed, and can easily be organised into canned indices if needs be.
Something clever and custom might just do the trick, but that could easily end up as a project in itself.
I am soon to be getting some nice little servers for co-location, and I could perhaps be persuaded to provide access to them, unless more sensible facilities are available elsewhere. This would at least give the possibility of more interesting hosting platforms that are tricky or expensive to come by elsewhere.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 04:22PM by Ru.
I've not heard of Savane or LibreSource before, but GForge hasn't ever looked particularly enticing to me. Perhaps having seen various places use it, badly, has not made the good impression that it deserves.
I'm personally in favour of something wiki like, for sheer flexibility, but with a much less fluffy, friendly, everyone-can-edit permissions model. The core parts of the site should be locked down, and access would be granted after you've proven yourself elsewhere, but creating or editting content in the open areas of the site, or whatever.
On the face of it, a CMS *looks* like a good idea, but having spent some time hacking around with them, let me just say 'don't do it!'. Most off-the-shelf CMS packages are oriented towards blog/news type places, and using them for other tasks is rather tortuous (feel free to browse Drupal's documentation, for example). -- edit... plone looks somewhat more grownup than most CMSes out there, at least.
I'll second the above suggestion of not having a rigid hierarchial file store or search system. A good tagging system is a very valuable thing indeed, and can easily be organised into canned indices if needs be.
Something clever and custom might just do the trick, but that could easily end up as a project in itself.
I am soon to be getting some nice little servers for co-location, and I could perhaps be persuaded to provide access to them, unless more sensible facilities are available elsewhere. This would at least give the possibility of more interesting hosting platforms that are tricky or expensive to come by elsewhere.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 04:22PM by Ru.
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! February 18, 2008 07:01PM |
I am in favour of something clever and custom being built, as I feel that getting the object library done well is absolutly vital to the success of this project. It is the first port of call to anyone with access to a repRap or repStrap and so should not only be functional, but also elegant.
It is all very well giving people access to a machine that can print a vast array of what they can imagine and then draw in three dimensions, however the majority of people currently lack the basic skills required to translate their imagination into a 3d file format and perhaps 25% of the population lack the ability to conciously think visually at all - [en.wikipedia.org]
This means that if the repRap is going to be a tool that is to be of use to more than just a rarefied subclass of engineers and artists, then it must have a very usable system for the distribution of 'products' to those who would otherwise be crowding our high streets for the latest fashion or gizmo.
It must also have an evolutionary (and I mean this in the actual meaning of the word) system of 'product development' that is not only usable by technicians, but can be contributed to by everyone from children through to the elderly, whether through commentary, sketches, technical drawings, photographs, computer modelscode> or various formats of directly printable data.
Thirdly, it must also have a rock solid support network built into it, so that people who need help in using a 'product' have a wealth of experience to draw on, both from other users and where possible, the originators of the object in question.
The current attempt at making an object library has, I have noticed, a very flat structure. This is fine when there are a few hundred objects, however it will start to break down after it gets much past a thousand and would be totally unusable should there be millions of objects available. Ideally, we could do with a fractal topology that reflects our use of language to describe the material world.
For example, someone searching for a chair may actually find that what suits them best for sitting upon is an object that was originally created as a table and in finding this table/chair among the objects on offer, should be able to link it back to the chair definition, so that others may find the same use. The more people who then reinforce this crosslinking will add to the chairyness of the thing created as a table, and if this table/chair is actually a very good chair then eventually it may appear most strongly in the chair area of the site, with only a faint whisper left of the creator's original tablelike intent.
However, while this navigational structure of descriptive language should be allowed to flow according to the whims of those using the system, there should also be a mechanism for the direct location of a particular object, no matter where it has found itself conceptually placed. To this end a unique identifier should be made for every version of every object on the system.
Ideally this should also be printed whenever the object is, either as a seperate tag, or if possible into the fabric of the object itself in a human readable form. This will allow anyone who has printed an object from the library to immediately access the help, history and genesis for the item that they possess.
-------------------
In the meantime tho, I would agree with getting a wiki thrown up with a public area that is turing test protected [ *edit* - just found out that this is what the reCAPTCHA references were further up the page.. looks really cool, lets get those books digitised
], plus administrators and user accounts for the live project/object areas, cos that could be done very quickly and would be reasonably functional for our needs in the immediate to near future
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 07:28PM by deadgenome.
It is all very well giving people access to a machine that can print a vast array of what they can imagine and then draw in three dimensions, however the majority of people currently lack the basic skills required to translate their imagination into a 3d file format and perhaps 25% of the population lack the ability to conciously think visually at all - [en.wikipedia.org]
This means that if the repRap is going to be a tool that is to be of use to more than just a rarefied subclass of engineers and artists, then it must have a very usable system for the distribution of 'products' to those who would otherwise be crowding our high streets for the latest fashion or gizmo.
It must also have an evolutionary (and I mean this in the actual meaning of the word) system of 'product development' that is not only usable by technicians, but can be contributed to by everyone from children through to the elderly, whether through commentary, sketches, technical drawings, photographs, computer modelscode> or various formats of directly printable data.
Thirdly, it must also have a rock solid support network built into it, so that people who need help in using a 'product' have a wealth of experience to draw on, both from other users and where possible, the originators of the object in question.
The current attempt at making an object library has, I have noticed, a very flat structure. This is fine when there are a few hundred objects, however it will start to break down after it gets much past a thousand and would be totally unusable should there be millions of objects available. Ideally, we could do with a fractal topology that reflects our use of language to describe the material world.
For example, someone searching for a chair may actually find that what suits them best for sitting upon is an object that was originally created as a table and in finding this table/chair among the objects on offer, should be able to link it back to the chair definition, so that others may find the same use. The more people who then reinforce this crosslinking will add to the chairyness of the thing created as a table, and if this table/chair is actually a very good chair then eventually it may appear most strongly in the chair area of the site, with only a faint whisper left of the creator's original tablelike intent.
However, while this navigational structure of descriptive language should be allowed to flow according to the whims of those using the system, there should also be a mechanism for the direct location of a particular object, no matter where it has found itself conceptually placed. To this end a unique identifier should be made for every version of every object on the system.
Ideally this should also be printed whenever the object is, either as a seperate tag, or if possible into the fabric of the object itself in a human readable form. This will allow anyone who has printed an object from the library to immediately access the help, history and genesis for the item that they possess.
-------------------
In the meantime tho, I would agree with getting a wiki thrown up with a public area that is turing test protected [ *edit* - just found out that this is what the reCAPTCHA references were further up the page.. looks really cool, lets get those books digitised
], plus administrators and user accounts for the live project/object areas, cos that could be done very quickly and would be reasonably functional for our needs in the immediate to near future Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 07:28PM by deadgenome.
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! February 19, 2008 10:10PM |
I have a heap of stuff I'd like to discuss on this.
I do think that there is a real need for an interim solution that can be created with existing 'off the shelf' tek.
However there should be a working group that takes on the creation of a custom object library as a not seperate but distinct project.
If we want the repRap to succeed then it is vital that the object library be done exceptionally well. All posts I have made so far on this subject have not been, in my true opinion, 'THE WAY I THINK IT MUST BE DONE', as that is something which I am far from sure of yet.
So, I may contradict myself regularly on this subject as my thoughts on this matter progress. The one thing however that I am sure of is that we make damn sure to build this thing well and learn from the mistakes of those who have come before.
I would therefore suggest that a development team be setup for this purpose with clear goals and which should work from whichever software development site best suits our current needs. And the first matter of business should be working out clearly what those goals may be. (or possibly which site to work from)
*note* I am not necessarily suggesting by that I should be a core member of this part of the project... Historically, if I have been the best organised member of any particular group, then that group is doomed... although I have been getting better at that recently
I do think that there is a real need for an interim solution that can be created with existing 'off the shelf' tek.
However there should be a working group that takes on the creation of a custom object library as a not seperate but distinct project.
If we want the repRap to succeed then it is vital that the object library be done exceptionally well. All posts I have made so far on this subject have not been, in my true opinion, 'THE WAY I THINK IT MUST BE DONE', as that is something which I am far from sure of yet.
So, I may contradict myself regularly on this subject as my thoughts on this matter progress. The one thing however that I am sure of is that we make damn sure to build this thing well and learn from the mistakes of those who have come before.
I would therefore suggest that a development team be setup for this purpose with clear goals and which should work from whichever software development site best suits our current needs. And the first matter of business should be working out clearly what those goals may be. (or possibly which site to work from)
*note* I am not necessarily suggesting by that I should be a core member of this part of the project... Historically, if I have been the best organised member of any particular group, then that group is doomed... although I have been getting better at that recently
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! February 20, 2008 03:48AM |
... i can assist with building/construction or conversion of 3D-objects - in the past i made some VRML-3D-worlds for exhibitions and presentations and for our microtec-fairs or customer-purposes i regularly designed and constructed the objects for 3D-fabbing or visual presentation/animation in raytraced scenarios.
For construction, animations and 'photorealistic' rendering i used/use 3D-Studio or Lightwave (sometimes PovRay too) and it's no problem to output in STL-format for the reprap-object-library ...
Viktor
For construction, animations and 'photorealistic' rendering i used/use 3D-Studio or Lightwave (sometimes PovRay too
) and it's no problem to output in STL-format for the reprap-object-library ...Viktor
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! February 20, 2008 10:04AM |
I used to swap 3d modelling for beer and smoke when I was at university to help out the fourth year students... there was one of the degree shows that was promoted almost entirely with my images, though the Uni didn't know that, they had just gone through the forth year subissions and picked the pictures they liked...
I've also got a realtime 3d engine with texturing that I've written in flash with an x3d file parser so I can draw stuff up in all the major commercial 3d packages, export to x3d and the flash then can pick up the x3d and the texture file referenced by the x3d, then it draws the object complete with the UV texture mapping.
It probably isn't high polygon enough to use for displaying complex objects, but we could probably do with something similar to allow people to see objects in the library.. perhaps the viewpoint 3d plugin or something...
I've also got a realtime 3d engine with texturing that I've written in flash with an x3d file parser so I can draw stuff up in all the major commercial 3d packages, export to x3d and the flash then can pick up the x3d and the texture file referenced by the x3d, then it draws the object complete with the UV texture mapping.
It probably isn't high polygon enough to use for displaying complex objects, but we could probably do with something similar to allow people to see objects in the library.. perhaps the viewpoint 3d plugin or something...
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! August 04, 2008 08:38AM |
If there is a webserver that could be used to store the stl-files,
then there is more than just one way to do it.
You may can use some regulare forumsoftware (like vBulletin or phpbb)
and just attach the stl to the post (Proper Topics required though) or the added download section,
that way one could discuss the files, show renderings, printouts and so on.
Or you could "mis"use a video or music library, but you'll need to add a filehosting script that may cause security issues.
And it's not as easy to add a new item as with forum software.
You can of course use nothing but a fullfeature filehosting script too,
but that way it's not as easy to sort the items by intention.
There are many pros and cons for each.
The BEST thing would be, to write a script yourself, that way it'll have all pros and less cons
If you need help with programming some php or such, just let me know, maybe I can help.
'sid
then there is more than just one way to do it.
You may can use some regulare forumsoftware (like vBulletin or phpbb)
and just attach the stl to the post (Proper Topics required though
) or the added download section,that way one could discuss the files, show renderings, printouts and so on.
Or you could "mis"use a video or music library, but you'll need to add a filehosting script that may cause security issues.
And it's not as easy to add a new item as with forum software.
You can of course use nothing but a fullfeature filehosting script too,
but that way it's not as easy to sort the items by intention.
There are many pros and cons for each.
The BEST thing would be, to write a script yourself, that way it'll have all pros and less cons
If you need help with programming some php or such, just let me know, maybe I can help.
'sid
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! August 04, 2008 07:02PM |
SebastienBailard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right now, what do you think of what's at
> [objects.reprap.org] ?
>
It may be me, I'm not a fan of wikis.
Not for stuff like this.
> Do you guys like the general feel, or should we
> start looking at a video or music library-like
> approach?
>
I would say so, it's hard to browse wikis without knowing what you're really looking for.
if it's more like a video database one could browse to get some ideas,
scroll a "genre" and then select an "artist" something equivalent would be nice.
(that's why I like forumbased systems; generally there's more infor for the file than just the stl and a picture)
> I like the fact that since it is a wiki, we can
> use it for development of future RepRap versions,
> and other projects, like a laser cutter:
> [objects.reprap.org]
>
True, but we already have a wiki for that kind of stuff, don't we?
the complete homepage is nothing but a wiki
> Right now, the biggest downside is that it doesn't
> have very many files on it.
> [objects.reprap.org]
>
That's because there aren't many RepRaps out there, so there are not too many people already printing stuff other than the darvon parts.
As soon as the number of active Printers increase I think the number of files will too.
> On that note, any suggestions how we can get a lot
> more contributions?
First: Start selling the extruder parts in the store again, so the hardest part of the darvin can be bought (see above)
Browse the Forum for already uploaded stls and copy those to the library
(not many people know the library at all)
Make it as easy as possible for registered users to upload to the wiki
It's somewhat confusing if I have to register myself numerous times within one website to do different stuff.
(another pro for a strikt forumbased library... that almost looks like a commercial; I'm sorry)
Oh btw:
I find it somewhat confusing with all the different folders and fileversions at sourceforge.
( I'm not as engaged in sourforge projects, so I'm not familiar with how they deal with different stuff)
It'd be nice to have the latest version of every stl listed in the library too.
That'd be much easier I guess. (at least for those like me)
And to get back where I started:
I like to see more than just what the originator of the file thinks about it.
I'd love to see improvements on that file, photographs of "what happened when I printed" or just reading a "thank you that's exactly what I needed"
If the uploader gets some feedback on his work, it's just more fun.
All that is impossible with a wiki (unfortunately)
'sid
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right now, what do you think of what's at
> [objects.reprap.org] ?
>
It may be me, I'm not a fan of wikis.
Not for stuff like this.
> Do you guys like the general feel, or should we
> start looking at a video or music library-like
> approach?
>
I would say so, it's hard to browse wikis without knowing what you're really looking for.
if it's more like a video database one could browse to get some ideas,
scroll a "genre" and then select an "artist" something equivalent would be nice.
(that's why I like forumbased systems; generally there's more infor for the file than just the stl and a picture)
> I like the fact that since it is a wiki, we can
> use it for development of future RepRap versions,
> and other projects, like a laser cutter:
> [objects.reprap.org]
>
True, but we already have a wiki for that kind of stuff, don't we?
the complete homepage is nothing but a wiki
> Right now, the biggest downside is that it doesn't
> have very many files on it.
> [objects.reprap.org]
>
That's because there aren't many RepRaps out there, so there are not too many people already printing stuff other than the darvon parts.
As soon as the number of active Printers increase I think the number of files will too.
> On that note, any suggestions how we can get a lot
> more contributions?
First: Start selling the extruder parts in the store again, so the hardest part of the darvin can be bought
(see above)Browse the Forum for already uploaded stls and copy those to the library
(not many people know the library at all)
Make it as easy as possible for registered users to upload to the wiki
It's somewhat confusing if I have to register myself numerous times within one website to do different stuff.
(another pro for a strikt forumbased library... that almost looks like a commercial; I'm sorry)
Oh btw:
I find it somewhat confusing with all the different folders and fileversions at sourceforge.
( I'm not as engaged in sourforge projects, so I'm not familiar with how they deal with different stuff)
It'd be nice to have the latest version of every stl listed in the library too.
That'd be much easier I guess. (at least for those like me
)And to get back where I started:
I like to see more than just what the originator of the file thinks about it.
I'd love to see improvements on that file, photographs of "what happened when I printed" or just reading a "thank you that's exactly what I needed"
If the uploader gets some feedback on his work, it's just more fun.
All that is impossible with a wiki (unfortunately)
'sid
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Re: Objects.RepRap.Org - Any volunteers? Let's build a file library! September 13, 2008 12:44AM |
Im a 3d artist amd would be willing to post some stuff that i make, also as a file location i would recommend turbosquid.com (a 3d warehouse site) you guys could create an account and upload a library of stl's and such as free assets which would allow you thumbnails and such as well. (and unlimited storage there is a guy with 9000 texture images on the site taking up oodles of space so they dont care at all about your space consumption),
Honestly i know of a few people on turbosquid that would be interested in the reprap movement. (and would make a hat load of models just for the heck of it)
I plan on building a reprap some day, but all my money goes into software right now as well as my college so im straped for cash (which means that by the time i can afford it the third gen model will be out
)
As of right now i could give you guys the stl of my plasma genorator and even include a base like a warmachine figurine
Honestly i know of a few people on turbosquid that would be interested in the reprap movement. (and would make a hat load of models just for the heck of it)
I plan on building a reprap some day, but all my money goes into software right now as well as my college so im straped for cash (which means that by the time i can afford it the third gen model will be out
) As of right now i could give you guys the stl of my plasma genorator and even include a base like a warmachine figurine
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