Re: In defence of Ormerod
February 21, 2014 05:00PM
Quote
rm2014
Well….. I am sure there are lots of happy campers, but on behalf of those who have had badly printed parts, bad instructions over the last 2 months, bad mother boards, which have had to be replaced, z probe problems, and a host of other niggles which have soured this product I would have to say that for the money in this day and age one should expect a product fit for purpose without having to spend days or weeks on forums or emailing support, which has been my experience, and since 13th December my printer is still not operational, I am not sure whether to consign it to the trash or keep on trying to make it work. I wouldn't mind if RRP and RS had the integrity to market it as an early prototype, or experimental printer like makerbot 2x, but they do not, and believe me the two machines are miles apart. I fear that with this latest offering from RRP the UK is going to be left behind, as the rest of the world powers ahead, already many organisations I have spoken to up and down the country are writing reprap machines off as just too unreliable, and from what I have seen, and now experienced I have to agree, I regret buying this one. RRP you must do better!

I have to agree that this is nothing more than an early prototype rushed to market before Xmas 2013 and am surprised a) RS took it on and b) RS are still selling it.

But for £500+vat there isn't anything else and certainly nothing else better. Makerbot x2 or the Ultimaker 2 I have just purchased cost 3-5 times more money. If you spend the time putting it together and understanding it you probably get similar results. The question is do you want to spend a lot of time "finishing" the printer or do you want to pay someone else to do so? That is why I think Reprap is not for "organisations" but for DIYers.

Reprap allowed me to get into 3D printing at moderate cost and I thank them for it but now I am moving on to the next level (still hobby class though) with the Ultimaker 2. What I need now is incompatible with Ormerod design: quieter (oremrod is incredibly noisy for what it is!), sturdier (incompatible with Ormerod bed design) and faster (incompatible with a bed moving in any direction other than Z).

I do not expect nicer prints, just easier, faster and printed indoors rather than in shed. It has cost me another £1100+vat on top of Ormerod price for the privilege, this is what we all need to bear in mind and therefore shouldn't be too hard on RepRap. RepRap are true to themselves, selling open source printers in kit.

If someone is to blame it is RS for retailing it and luring people into thinking that this printer is on par with RS products range. I think that this is where all the misunderstanding is coming from. Had people bought this printer from RepRap direct (even at the same price) they would have had more realistic expectations and not have been disappointed.
Re: In defence of Ormerod
February 21, 2014 06:49PM
@arnaud31, I'd me interested to know just how much faster your Ultimaker 2 is than the Ormerod. As for noise, if that is a problem for you then there are some inexpensive solutions (but requiring some work):

1. Replace the ATX PSU by a fanless PSU, see [forums.reprap.org]

2. Use a quieter hotend fan as some users have done

3. Put the Ormerod in an enclosure.

The thing I like about the Ormerod is that it is an open-source design and I can correct its deficiencies (whether real or imagined, hardware or software) myself. But if you are looking for a 3D printer that you can use as-is because you don't have much spare time but can afford to pay a lot more, then perhaps the Ormerod is not for you.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: In defence of Ormerod
February 22, 2014 08:46AM
Hi dc42, remember the title of this thread! I think you misread my post, I have no problem with Ormerod, in fact I would argue that I have been one of the lucky few to be least affected by teething problems. I have no backwash problem, no bed levelling problem, am able to tension my belt without modifications and I print on Kapton as intended. I don't use ethernet and don't use the web interface because it can't what it does that Pronterface doesn't (I can only see what Pronterface does and the web interface doesn't in fact.

The Ormerod just isn't sufficient for me any longer. I have printed 8kg of PLA with the it since the second week of January and it prints around the clock and every day, so it is not a question of not having spare time, just a question of not having time altogether. The design of the Ormerod, with a bed moving in Y rather than Z is a big limitation. It is simple physics not a criticism. I print large "heavy" parts at times and having the lot moving about constantly just isn't compatible with fast prints, regardless of how tight the belt is. It is the difference between moving a light hotend about or moving a heavy bed and print.

I have not tried printing faster than 100mm/s but can't why I could not approach the top speed of 150mm/s for draft printing. On the other hand I never managed to print anything half decent with Ormerod above 40-45mm/s (for small parts) or above 30-35mm/s (for large parts).

My longest print to date is 39hrs, I cannot output enough parts, simple! The alternative is a faster printer or another couple of Ormerod! In the end it costs the same, one way or the other.

On noise, the PSU fan is not a problem, I can barely hear it, the hotend fan could be a lot quieter but it isn't preventing me from sleeping. What prevents me (actually the wife) from printing indoors is the "singing" of the servos.

I could post some videos of side by side printing with both printers but that isn't the point. They are not the same things, one isn't better than the other, just different. For the same reason I don't compare Ormerod or UM stuff with what comes out of the printer at work, that cost £850,000 (presumably VAT is not even included at that price).

On the subject of deficiencies, I tend to believe that most if not all are imagined...

Quote
dc42
@arnaud31, I'd me interested to know just how much faster your Ultimaker 2 is than the Ormerod. As for noise, if that is a problem for you then there are some inexpensive solutions (but requiring some work):

1. Replace the ATX PSU by a fanless PSU, see [forums.reprap.org]

2. Use a quieter hotend fan as some users have done

3. Put the Ormerod in an enclosure.

The thing I like about the Ormerod is that it is an open-source design and I can correct its deficiencies (whether real or imagined, hardware or software) myself. But if you are looking for a 3D printer that you can use as-is because you don't have much spare time but can afford to pay a lot more, then perhaps the Ormerod is not for you.
Re: In defence of Ormerod
February 22, 2014 09:06AM
Sorry, posted twice instead of editing to add quote Arnaud, have you tried dc42's latest firmware [github.com] ? The handling of acceleration/deceleration on small moves is a major enhancement for increasing print speed (before this update deceleration on curves didn't happen properly, causing a jolt on direction change that at best made the axes bang and judder, at worst made them skip some steps) - along with increasing the acceleration from 800 to 2000 for X and Y (so that the axes get up to speed on short segments), I find I can print at 100mm/s with better results than I used to get at 50mm/s (my previous "draft" speed), on reasonably complicated parts such as gears (which wouldn't print properly at 50 at all because of the shear effect of missing steps, but now print properly if a little rough finished at 100.

The motor and bearing noise increases, so your wife still won't like it smiling smiley, but it should cut print time significantly without loss of quality,


Ray


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2014 09:15AM by rayhicks.
Re: In defence of Ormerod
February 22, 2014 09:08AM
Quote
Arnaud31
I have not tried printing faster than 100mm/s but can't why I could not approach the top speed of 150mm/s for draft printing. On the other hand I never managed to print anything half decent with Ormerod above 40-45mm/s (for small parts) or above 30-35mm/s (for large parts).

My longest print to date is 39hrs, I cannot output enough parts, simple! The alternative is a faster printer or another couple of Ormerod! In the end it costs the same, one way or the other.
Arnaud, have you tried dc42's latest firmware [github.com] ? The handling of acceleration/deceleration on small moves is a major enhancement for increasing print speed (before this update deceleration on curves didn't happen properly, causing a jolt on direction change that at best made the axes bang and judder, at worst made them skip some steps) - along with increasing the acceleration from 800 to 2000 for X and Y (so that the axes get up to speed on short segments), I find I can print at 100mm/s with better results than I used to get at 50mm/s (my previous "draft" speed), on reasonably complicated parts such as gears (which wouldn't print properly at 50 at all because of the shear effect of missing steps, but now print properly if a little rough finished at 100.

The motor and bearing noise increases, so your wife still won't like it smiling smiley, but it should cut print time significantly without loss of quality,
Re: In defence of Ormerod
February 23, 2014 11:13AM
Quote
rayhicks
Quote
Arnaud31
I have not tried printing faster than 100mm/s but can't why I could not approach the top speed of 150mm/s for draft printing. On the other hand I never managed to print anything half decent with Ormerod above 40-45mm/s (for small parts) or above 30-35mm/s (for large parts).

My longest print to date is 39hrs, I cannot output enough parts, simple! The alternative is a faster printer or another couple of Ormerod! In the end it costs the same, one way or the other.
Arnaud, have you tried dc42's latest firmware [github.com] ? The handling of acceleration/deceleration on small moves is a major enhancement for increasing print speed (before this update deceleration on curves didn't happen properly, causing a jolt on direction change that at best made the axes bang and judder, at worst made them skip some steps) - along with increasing the acceleration from 800 to 2000 for X and Y (so that the axes get up to speed on short segments), I find I can print at 100mm/s with better results than I used to get at 50mm/s (my previous "draft" speed), on reasonably complicated parts such as gears (which wouldn't print properly at 50 at all because of the shear effect of missing steps, but now print properly if a little rough finished at 100.

The motor and bearing noise increases, so your wife still won't like it smiling smiley, but it should cut print time significantly without loss of quality,

Thanks Ray,

Will try the new firmware as soon as I get back home. I still need 2 printers mind, but if they can both print fast it is better. I too gets the shear effect often when printing too fast so would be good if that went away. I will also try to print at 150mm/s on UM and report. As for the noise I fear indeed that it isn't going to make the wife any happier...
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