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Some filaments just won't stick...

Posted by rkc 
rkc
Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 01:40PM
I've been printing successfully with the filament that came with the Ormerod, and also with a reel of black PLA that I bought from Amazon (Sainsmart brand), but I have a couple of reels (Reprapper brand) that I am really struggling with - it seems like it's much stickier (to itself and to the nozzle) but much less sticky to the bed. I've tried various combinations of printing temperature, bed temperature, first layer height, first layer speed, Z adjustment, printbed surfaces, etc, but I'm really struggling with this PLA. Once I get past the first layer it's usually fine and prints nicely, but it's very frustrating trying to get there.

It does seem to be very sensitive to getting the Z properly zeroed and the bed level, but even then my success rate is low.

Anyone else tried these filaments and managed to get the to stick? Anything I should have tried and haven't? Any recommendations of brands of PPLA that work well and brands that don't? I'm running out of the PLA that I can reliably print...

Richard
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 01:55PM
I tend to keep with what works, [www.filamentprint.com] is the site which is printed on the reels that the printer came with and I buy from them, you can also get the same reels from RS Components [uk.rs-online.com]
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 03:30PM
The PLA I've had from [stores.ebay.co.uk] has been pretty good for the price (£18.50 / KG) (I've used white, black and silver) though just checking they don't have much selection at the moment.

Faberdashery filament is very good but expensive, particularly for 1.75mm diameter.

I always use a thin film of PVA glue (dilute 1:6 with water and apply with a cloth) on the bed - I suspect the wedo3d white would stick fine without this but it's habit now and it lasts for several prints and takes seconds to refresh.

I remember the frustration of not getting the prints to stick - the PVA helps a lot but the first layer thickness (and therefore bed levelling) is important - the first layer should be visibly squashed but not so much that the head is ploughing a furrow through it on the second layer.

HTH

Mark
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 03:39PM
Quote
steve0-uk
I tend to keep with what works, [www.filamentprint.com] is the site which is printed on the reels that the printer came with and I buy from them, you can also get the same reels from RS Components [uk.rs-online.com]

Good Lord that is ridiculously expensive filament! [www.filamentprint.com] quotes £19.14 for 100m of "Ormerod" PLA which works out as £63.16 per kg, and RS is even more expensive. I tried looking at their "generic" filament, but it does not have any prices quoted, and when trying to "add to basket" to find out the cost I get a 404 error. Most other pages display as "Coming Soon."

I buy from [www.3dfilaprint.com] which currently charges £18.75 for 1kg of either ordinary PLA or ABS (less than a third the price), and £26.50 per kg for fluorescent, and thermo chromatic - and I have never had any problems with their material, which comes vacuum-sealed with an empty ziplock bag and silica gel to store the reel after opening, and often an added freebie of some sort, plus they have a huge range of not only PLA and ABS but also many other materials - that you can order right now delivered within 2 to 3 days rather than "coming soon". I'm sure there are other equally good stores, but that's the only one I have used (for over a year) and have had no complaints at all.

(A kilogram of 1.75mm PLA is about 330 meters, and a kilogram of ABS is about 400 meters).

Dave

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 03:44PM by dmould.
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 03:44PM
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dmould
Quote
steve0-uk
I tend to keep with what works, [www.filamentprint.com] is the site which is printed on the reels that the printer came with and I buy from them, you can also get the same reels from RS Components [uk.rs-online.com]

Good Lord that is ridiculously expensive filament! [www.filamentprint.com] quotes £19.14 for 100m of "Ormerod" PLA which works out as £63.16 per kg, and RS is even more expensive. I tried looking at their "generic" filament, but it does not have any prices quoted, and when trying to "add to basket" to find out the cost I get a 404 error. Most other pages display as "Coming Soon."

I buy from www.3dfilaprint.com which currently charges £26.50 for 1kg of either PLA or ABS (less than half the price) - and I have never had any problems with their material, which comes vacuum-sealed with an empty ziplock bag and silica gel to store the reel after opening, and often an added freebie of some sort, plus they have a huge range of not only PLA and ABS but also many other materials - that you can order right now delivered within 2 to 3 days rather than "coming soon". I'm sure there are other equally good stores, but that's the only one I have used (for over a year) and have had no complaints at all.

(A kilogram of 1.75mm PLA is about 330 meters, and a kilogram of ABS is about 400 meters).

Dave

To be fair I've only bought a black and a second white. They are the same size spools that come with the Ormerod and come in a sealed bag as well. I work at RS so I get them for £13 a spool :-)
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 03:49PM
Quote
steve0-uk
To be fair I've only bought a black and a second white. They are the same size spools that come with the Ormerod and come in a sealed bag as well. I work at RS so I get them for £13 a spool :-)

In fact I inadvertently quoted the price of the special colours at 3dfilaprint, their normal filament is even cheaper (I have edited my post to reflect that). Even with your discount you are paying 30% more, and I seriously doubt that the quality is any better. the only downside is that you cannot hang a 1kg spool off the back of the Duet housing - but siting it elsewhere on a separate holder is no problem.

Dave

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 03:52PM by dmould.
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 03:54PM
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dmould
Quote
steve0-uk
To be fair I've only bought a black and a second white. They are the same size spools that come with the Ormerod and come in a sealed bag as well. I work at RS so I get them for £13 a spool :-)

In fact I inadvertently quoted the price of the special colours at 3dfilaprint, their normal filament is even cheaper (I have edited my post to reflect that). Even with your discount you are paying 30% more, and I seriously doubt that the quality is any better.

Dave

I will bear them in mind next time I need some. As I said it's the same that reprap supply. It's all I know from what was supplied. But if I can get it cheaper then I am all for it :-)
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 27, 2015 03:59PM
I've had the same problem. I don't print on Kapton tape. Jet PLA bought via Amazon won't stick to anything. Filament from eBay supplier wedo3dprinting will stick to solvent cement. The only PLA filaments I am really happy with are the original spool supplied with my Ormerod 1, and filament supplied by Galactic Warehouse (aka eBay supplier latest-bidder). Both of these will stick to plain glass, initially cleaned in hot soapy water, and primed with vinegar between prints.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2015 06:15AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
rkc
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 04:57AM
Thanks everyone

The filament I have that I am struggling with is from www.3dfilaprint.com, so it's interesting to hear that dmould has no problems with it. I wonder what I am doing differently. I'm very happy with their service and their prices, just struggling with getting the filament to print.

Like dc42, I find that "good" filament will stick to plain glass, while "tricky" filament will barely work even on kapton. I've not tried the PVA glue wipe method, but I will!

I agree that the original Ormerod PLA is expensive - but if it saves on frustration and wasted prints/false starts it might be worth it. If I could find another supplier that works as well but at a more realistic price I'd be happy. The sainsmart filament I got from amazon is also very reliable but doesn't seem to be available any more.

I'll give the Galactic Warehouse a try.
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 05:14AM
Quote
rkc
Thanks everyone

The filament I have that I am struggling with is from www.3dfilaprint.com, so it's interesting to hear that dmould has no problems with it. I wonder what I am doing differently. I'm very happy with their service and their prices, just struggling with getting the filament to print.

Like dc42, I find that "good" filament will stick to plain glass, while "tricky" filament will barely work even on kapton. I've not tried the PVA glue wipe method, but I will!

I agree that the original Ormerod PLA is expensive - but if it saves on frustration and wasted prints/false starts it might be worth it. If I could find another supplier that works as well but at a more realistic price I'd be happy. The sainsmart filament I got from amazon is also very reliable but doesn't seem to be available any more.

I'll give the Galactic Warehouse a try.

I have started using ESUN Filaments lately which appear to be excellent price varies a lot depending on exchange rate but got last batch for around £10 per Kg from of all place a RC Models supplier uk stock now as well so arrived in around 4 days from order

www.hobbyking.co.uk
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 05:54AM
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dougal1957
Quote
rkc
Thanks everyone

The filament I have that I am struggling with is from www.3dfilaprint.com, so it's interesting to hear that dmould has no problems with it. I wonder what I am doing differently. I'm very happy with their service and their prices, just struggling with getting the filament to print.

Like dc42, I find that "good" filament will stick to plain glass, while "tricky" filament will barely work even on kapton. I've not tried the PVA glue wipe method, but I will!

I agree that the original Ormerod PLA is expensive - but if it saves on frustration and wasted prints/false starts it might be worth it. If I could find another supplier that works as well but at a more realistic price I'd be happy. The sainsmart filament I got from amazon is also very reliable but doesn't seem to be available any more.

I'll give the Galactic Warehouse a try.

I have started using ESUN Filaments lately which appear to be excellent price varies a lot depending on exchange rate but got last batch for around £10 per Kg from of all place a RC Models supplier uk stock now as well so arrived in around 4 days from order

www.hobbyking.co.uk

Yep, I still have a couple of ESUN Abs spools left too. They're fairly cheap and have a consistent diameter, but unfortunately my supplier Multec.de doesn't offer them any more. Now I use filament by Futuraform, which isn't bad either, but it's definitely more expensive (30eu for 750g). At least I can source this one directly from a local 3D print shop and don't need to wait when I need it smiling smiley
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 06:20AM
Quote
zombiepantslol
Quote
dougal1957
Quote
rkc
Thanks everyone

The filament I have that I am struggling with is from www.3dfilaprint.com, so it's interesting to hear that dmould has no problems with it. I wonder what I am doing differently. I'm very happy with their service and their prices, just struggling with getting the filament to print.

Like dc42, I find that "good" filament will stick to plain glass, while "tricky" filament will barely work even on kapton. I've not tried the PVA glue wipe method, but I will!

I agree that the original Ormerod PLA is expensive - but if it saves on frustration and wasted prints/false starts it might be worth it. If I could find another supplier that works as well but at a more realistic price I'd be happy. The sainsmart filament I got from amazon is also very reliable but doesn't seem to be available any more.

I'll give the Galactic Warehouse a try.

I have started using ESUN Filaments lately which appear to be excellent price varies a lot depending on exchange rate but got last batch for around £10 per Kg from of all place a RC Models supplier uk stock now as well so arrived in around 4 days from order

www.hobbyking.co.uk

Yep, I still have a couple of ESUN Abs spools left too. They're fairly cheap and have a consistent diameter, but unfortunately my supplier Multec.de doesn't offer them any more. Now I use filament by Futuraform, which isn't bad either, but it's definitely more expensive (30eu for 750g). At least I can source this one directly from a local 3D print shop and don't need to wait when I need it smiling smiley

Hobbyking have a EU Warehouse that stock it as well and may even be cheaper than the UK One
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 08:57AM
Quote
rkc
Thanks everyone
The filament I have that I am struggling with is from www.3dfilaprint.com, so it's interesting to hear that dmould has no problems with it. I wonder what I am doing differently. I'm very happy with their service and their prices, just struggling with getting the filament to print.

I only print in ABS, but found that quality was good so assumed the PLA they sold would also be quality stuff. Bear in mind that different colours can have different characteristics because the colorant affects the properties to an extent. You could try changing the hotend temperature. I use ABS slurry on my print bed, but as said that's with ABS filament. Given the huge (nearly 4X) price difference it could be worthwhile spending a little time trying to overcome the first layer adhesion issue so long as the filament is otherwise satisfactory. You only have to discover the solution once!

Dave
rkc
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 12:12PM
Quote
dmould
Quote
rkc
Thanks everyone
The filament I have that I am struggling with is from www.3dfilaprint.com, so it's interesting to hear that dmould has no problems with it. I wonder what I am doing differently. I'm very happy with their service and their prices, just struggling with getting the filament to print.

I only print in ABS, but found that quality was good so assumed the PLA they sold would also be quality stuff. Bear in mind that different colours can have different characteristics because the colorant affects the properties to an extent. You could try changing the hotend temperature. I use ABS slurry on my print bed, but as said that's with ABS filament. Given the huge (nearly 4X) price difference it could be worthwhile spending a little time trying to overcome the first layer adhesion issue so long as the filament is otherwise satisfactory. You only have to discover the solution once!

Dave

I agree - I'd love to find a solution to get this filament printing - not least because I have 3kg of it. I had hoped it was colourant-related, but I seem to have similar issues on both read and white (not tried the roll of black I have from them yet).

Other than using PVA glue, and getting the Z=0 height just right. are there any settings that are likely to help. I have played with various hotend temperatures (and bed temperatures) but not noticed much difference.

Richard
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 02:11PM
Quote
rkc
Quote
dmould
Quote
rkc
Thanks everyone
The filament I have that I am struggling with is from www.3dfilaprint.com, so it's interesting to hear that dmould has no problems with it. I wonder what I am doing differently. I'm very happy with their service and their prices, just struggling with getting the filament to print.

I only print in ABS, but found that quality was good so assumed the PLA they sold would also be quality stuff. Bear in mind that different colours can have different characteristics because the colorant affects the properties to an extent. You could try changing the hotend temperature. I use ABS slurry on my print bed, but as said that's with ABS filament. Given the huge (nearly 4X) price difference it could be worthwhile spending a little time trying to overcome the first layer adhesion issue so long as the filament is otherwise satisfactory. You only have to discover the solution once!

Dave

I agree - I'd love to find a solution to get this filament printing - not least because I have 3kg of it. I had hoped it was colourant-related, but I seem to have similar issues on both read and white (not tried the roll of black I have from them yet).

Other than using PVA glue, and getting the Z=0 height just right. are there any settings that are likely to help. I have played with various hotend temperatures (and bed temperatures) but not noticed much difference.

Richard

I'm not sure if what works for me with ABS will be any good for PLA, but FWIW solvent cement worked the best (available behind the tills in DIY stores for joining PVC pipes). I later changed to using an ABS & acetone slurry, which works the same. You could also try hairspray and Pritt glue stick. Also maybe try your black reel - black seems to be the most tolerant colour for me.

Dave
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 02:26PM
I had first layer problems with the same filament and Kapton tape, I have now abandoned the tape and use plain glass with a 10-1 watered down solution of PVA (just wipe over a couple of times with a cloth on a hot bed). Never had the problem since.

Regards,

Les


Pointy's Things
Pointy's Blog
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 02:28PM
I have also read that giving the Kapton tape a light sanding with fine emery paper works well.

Dave
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 03:43PM
Quote
dmould
I have also read that giving the Kapton tape a light sanding with fine emery paper works well.

Dave

Tho not on a Ormerod I find the keep the kapton clean (I wipe it down with Acetone between each print) and use a bed temp of 65 with nozzle at 185 works for me every time.

Doug.

ps kapton is one piece on glass (ie 200mm wide roll)
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 04:56PM
I had problems when the print wouldn't stick to the bed. After a while i found out that the hotend was loose. After tightening everything up i didn't had to much problems with PLA prints on Kapton.

I have an electronics cleaner to keep the tape clean of fat.

ABS only worked for me with a brim but i don't have printed much yet.
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 28, 2015 08:27PM
Quote
rkc

I agree - I'd love to find a solution to get this filament printing - not least because I have 3kg of it. I had hoped it was colourant-related, but I seem to have similar issues on both read and white (not tried the roll of black I have from them yet).

Other than using PVA glue, and getting the Z=0 height just right. are there any settings that are likely to help. I have played with various hotend temperatures (and bed temperatures) but not noticed much difference.

Richard

I've been using the Reprapper filament. I moved straight onto it after using up (most) of the small roll I was supplied with my Ormerod 2.

Initially I just dropped it in and started printing quite successfully with exactly the same setting as the original filament and got pretty decent results though I didn't seem to have quite so good finish on the bottom - which looked like irregular voids - though not actual holes.

I then had a major misprint which got filament all over the head and after that couldn't seem to get anything to stick (using Kapton tape wiped with white vinegar - which is what I have always used). I then took the opportunity to fit the replacement aluminium arm I had purchased and spent time resetting the z height.

Success was finally found by increasing the 1st layer thickness in Slic3r to 0.5mm and printing with a brim. I also moved the initial skirt out as I had several problems with this being pulled into the print due to poor adhesion.

I'm still printing with 185deg head (1st and subsequent layers) and 60deg heated bed. The label on the filament suggest 190deg is the lowest limit but my experiments with this and higher temperatures were not sucessfull.

I suspect my real issue is bed leveling (I'm using automatic the Z axis does move on eash level so its obviously needed) and probably temperature. I also haven't addressed fan backwash which I think is part of the problem.

Having said that - I've got the printer making nice and quite sizable prints so I'm happy with the Reprapper filament I got from 3dfilaprint. Its good value and I'll probably buy more. So far I've tried white and black PLA with the same settings.

I made a short video about the issues I had:

RepRapPro Ormerod 2 printing problems and some success

I've made some other related videos too - just search for 'mrrgstuff' on youtube.

:-)


mrrgstuff

(3d printing/Ormerod 2 videos on YouTube - search: mrrgstuff)
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 29, 2015 04:08AM
Quote
dougal1957
I find the keep the kapton clean (I wipe it down with Acetone between each print) and use a bed temp of 65 with nozzle at 185 works for me every time.

Doug.

ps kapton is one piece on glass (ie 200mm wide roll)

All I do with mine is lift the z up to 30 and heat the bed. Give it a wipe with a piece of kitchen roll once up to temp them home all axis then print. Since build I've had 2 failed prints but only because the bearing on the x carriage came loose.

Where did you get the 200mm kapton tape?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2015 04:10AM by steve0-uk.
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 29, 2015 10:50AM
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steve0-uk
Quote
dougal1957
I find the keep the kapton clean (I wipe it down with Acetone between each print) and use a bed temp of 65 with nozzle at 185 works for me every time.

Doug.

ps kapton is one piece on glass (ie 200mm wide roll)

All I do with mine is lift the z up to 30 and heat the bed. Give it a wipe with a piece of kitchen roll once up to temp them home all axis then print. Since build I've had 2 failed prints but only because the bearing on the x carriage came loose.

Where did you get the 200mm kapton tape?

Various places do it but try wedo3dprinting.com it's £20.90 for 200mm wide rolls.

Doug
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
January 29, 2015 01:26PM
Quote
dougal1957
Quote
steve0-uk
Quote
dougal1957
I find the keep the kapton clean (I wipe it down with Acetone between each print) and use a bed temp of 65 with nozzle at 185 works for me every time.

Doug.

ps kapton is one piece on glass (ie 200mm wide roll)

All I do with mine is lift the z up to 30 and heat the bed. Give it a wipe with a piece of kitchen roll once up to temp them home all axis then print. Since build I've had 2 failed prints but only because the bearing on the x carriage came loose.

Where did you get the 200mm kapton tape?

Various places do it but try wedo3dprinting.com it's £20.90 for 200mm wide rolls.

Doug

Great thanks :-)
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
June 14, 2015 07:23PM
I agree the original filament provided with my RS Ormerod was very good, very even virtually perfect print quality. I bought black and silver from amazon, they are labelled MG chemicals medium priced about £15 for 0.5kg. The black is good and very tolerant of different print settings, seems more viscous, probably the colourant used.
The silver was a nightmare to get started, too much temp on the first layer and it acted like gummy glue sticking to everything but the bed. Finally got somewhere with lower temp and about 93% extrusion and super slow first layer, diameter of both silver and black was pretty consistent.
The silver does look quite good visually, the layers blend together well, the black shows the layers more but that could just be a visual artefact of the it being black.
Bought a cheap (£18.50 delivered for 1kg) white PLA from latest-bidder on ebay, bit sticky like the silver, turns out needs a low temp unless you print much faster than stock ie over 150%.

I have asked this in the Ormerod forum, but has anyone tried colorfabb XT it looks like a good alternative to abs without the drawbacks, I'm worried about longterm possible breakdown of PLA and parts being effected by heat.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2015 07:33PM by Firefox3D.
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
June 23, 2015 07:16AM
I usually print PLA from 3dfilaprint on a PVA glue bed. Hardly ever have issues except in the past its stuck too much and ive ended up taking slices of glass off with the print.

I have some ABS from GalacticWarehouse (its probably about a year old now, and it wasnt sealed in a air tight container) but ive been having so many issues with it not sticking. I just cant get it to print. Ive tried kapton tape, PVA, masking tape. and a mixture of all the above + ABS slurry (nail polish remover, i think its a bit weak)

I do like the idea of printing direct to glass, and wiping with vinegar! Might have to give that a go.
Re: Some filaments just won't stick...
June 23, 2015 11:32AM
PLA sticks on Blue Painter's Tape even too good. I am also testing this BuildTak surface. ABS and PLA sticks here really good. It is optimal for ABS and well for PLA but you have to be a little bit more careful as it needs some completely different handling regarding printing.


Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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