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Y axis shudder at high speeds

Posted by bgkdavis 
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bgkdavis
Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 06, 2015 07:36PM
My Y axis has just developed a shudder at high speed moves (circa 10000mm/min) which is causing layer shifting

the checks I've gone through already are as follows
  • Checked the rails are parallel (within 0.02mm)
  • Re floated bearings
  • Changed motor
  • Checked idler bearings are free
  • Checked belt tension
  • Checked wiring
  • lubricated rails

Whilst checking everything and virtually rebuilding the Y axis, I did find that the belt drive grub screw was loose, but tightening that didn't fix the problem

Interestingly slackening off the belt alleviates the visible bed shudder, but I suspect this just allows the belt to absorb the vibration from the motor and not transmit it directly to the bed, you can still see a lot of vibration on the belt.

I'm wondering if this is a Duet board issue, later today, Ill try and drive the Y axis with the X axis driver and see if I get the same result.

This though also leads me to wonder if the firmware has an option to remap which stepper driver is associated with which axis.... i.e could I reallocate one of the extruder drivers to be a temporary Y axis driver?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2015 11:33PM by bgkdavis.
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 02:05AM
You may consider and printing the Y-Belt-Tensioner. I am using this together with Iamburnys Z-Belt clamps. I thought that the belt clamps would be enough but I was totally wrong. This belt tensioner is a must have.
Ormerod 1: [www.thingiverse.com]
Ormerod 2: [www.thingiverse.com]

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 02:11AM
A) That part wont work on a Mendel 3,
cool smiley The M3 already has an OK belt tension mechanism,
C) As stated, more tension==more shudder, so I'm discounting belt tension,

My prime suspicion is its coming from the motor or motor driver.
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 02:14AM
A) Why do you post this inside the Ormerod forum and why you have not mention that the problem is related to a Mendel 3?

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 02:21AM
G) I could waste my time posting this in the Mendel forum, but since nobody there has experience with the Duet then I post in here and extrapolate
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 02:25AM
Okay, the results of switching the motor looms would be important. But as you exchanged the motor I do not think this is motor related. Dou you use original bearings or Igus bearings?

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 03:39AM
well, just settled down to do some serious debugging, and found that bizarrely the problem has vanished!

interestingly the other problem I had last night was crappy connection to the web interface and that's vanished as well!

its not basic power cycle related because I did dozens of cycles last night!

well, guess Ill just try and redo last nights print and see if it works now!
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 03:45AM
Good luck,
But I also have sometime issues with the Browser connection. With the current firmware 1.09d-dc42 it is much better than 1.09c-zpl (because of this problem I switched from zpl to dc42), but it is still present.

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 05:25AM
oh well so much for that, the problem returned.

interestingly the problem remained with the Y axis when I swapped the XY harnesses, so that clears the drives and cable, just leaves the motor and axis itself....

its almost like its thermal related!
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 05:29AM
Maybe you have some crack in your printed parts? Or you can do some dry run tests only axis moving with bed heated and a cold bed,

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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droftarts
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 07:33AM
Check that the linear bearings are lubricated. It's actually the seals that need lubricating; if they dry out, they can 'chatter' on the smooth rod, which may cause mis-stepping. This can be worse at higher speed, or at particular speeds, when the frequency is just right. Put a drop of light oil on the smooth rod each side of the bearing, and move the bearing back and forth. This is covered in the Maintenance section of the instructions: [reprappro.com]

Ian
RepRapPro tech support
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 08:19AM
A liberal application of 3in1 was one of the first things I tried (the bottle lives next to the printer), the Y and X axes are both very slick, I even managed to tune out the 0.02mm out of parallel I had between the Y rails

Since earlier I've now seen the same issue appear and dissapear in the X axis, and have simultaneously seen it in the X and Y axes so I've been thinking electrical noise, and have checked all the earth bondings

I've just moved the printer onto the kitchen work bench because there is a lot more room there, and the problem dissapeared again!... that could be due to simple perversity, or could be down to the 1" marble worktops are a lot more stable than the table I was using....

Ive just started anotehr print and realising that as well as the Xa dn Y axes being smooth the extruder is a lot quieter on retract moves, which makes me wonder if that was also affected, and its been noise all allong
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 07, 2015 10:53AM
What do you use for lubrication?

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 08, 2015 08:37PM
I can now confirm that the web connection issues are definitely connected to the shuddering, and the shuddering is in both X and Y axes

After a day of few problems I've just fired up the printer to start a long print, and found I was having trouble uploading a file over the web interface.

So, I immediately start running the shuttle test program I wrote and yup the shudder is there as well.

So, I'm thinking the problem is actually board/process or related... maybe there could be a thermal factor???????
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 08, 2015 11:42PM
OK.... this is really strange..... moved the printer back onto the kitchen worktop and its fine again

POS 1

stability good
ethernet cable SAME
power cable SAME
power socket different
network connection via house Ethernet infrastructure
axis smoothness... occasional shudder


POS 2

stability verygood
ethernet cable SAME
power cable SAME
power socket different
network connection direct to laptop.
axis smoothness... excellent


the variables I think are either the power socket, which is worrying given it suggests I may have a problem with house power supply and I live in a timber framed house, or the connection via my ethernet infrastructure.......guess I can test for that easy enough!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2015 01:31AM by bgkdavis.
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 09, 2015 01:19AM
One stupid question: Why does the printer have to have an Ethernet connection during printing? I hope you only monitor the print and the print runs from SD-card. Okay if the printer has to resend the network packages often more than once it may overload the CPU. That could be the only reason I could imagine

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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chrishamm
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 09, 2015 06:54AM
bgkdavis, it actually sounds like your issue is related to the Ethernet connection. I've prepared an experimental firmware binary that assigns a lower interrupt priority to the ethernet IRQ. Would you mind checking if it makes any difference? You can get it here: [www.dropbox.com]

Treito, although this may help, I don't think it's the right way to deal with this circumstance. The SAM3X allows us to set priorities for each IRQ, so we should try to reorganise and optimise them in the first instance.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2015 07:20AM by zombiepantslol.
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 09, 2015 08:29AM
I was only wondering if he uses Pronterface via Ethernet for printing or if he prints directly from SD card. That would make a huge difference. Otherwise your solution is of course much better.

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 09, 2015 08:38AM
Thanks zpl, I agree, the ethernet connection is definatly the prime suspect, and lowering the priority sound like a good move.

My house ethernet infrastructure is extensive on both wireless and wired, whilst the printer is in operation only a very small percentage of the traffic will be for the printer, but I suspect the duet may be seeing some of the other trafic and wasting a lot of time rejecting it.

Just thinking on my feet I did recently add a system that broadcasts hdmi data over the cable network so I can share sat tv throughout the house....they are on a different subnet, but i bet they are spamming a lot of data......wonder if thats where the problem started, and it may explain the semi intermittant nature of the problem, it may only happen when the sat box is turned on.

Ill try your firmware tomorrow, Ive been busy redesigning some animatronics for 3d printing
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Treito
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 09, 2015 08:46AM
Even if the network is on another subnet your network cable is only capable to transmit one network packet at once. So maybe the Duet has to wait for a pause to transmit the data. You should deactivate all other "partners" at the router to confirm this. And of course the new firmware woud be the best solution in theory. If this works for you you have to check if you get other problems.
At least you should consider of rethinking your network setup. And is also a good idea to tell these circumstances if you have questions. It is a complete other situation if the Duet may have to handle big foreign network traffic.

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 03:24AM
I have now proven that the shuddering is due to the Ethernet connection and directly attributable to the HDMI-Ethernet converter box I installed on my satellite receiver...... now to test ZPLs fix
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 03:49AM
HEY ZPL!!!! how do I reverse the direction of the X axis with your firmware, maybe I should I reiterated this is for a Mendel 3 not an Ormerod
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 03:49AM
HEY ZPL!!!! how do I reverse the direction of the X axis with your firmware, maybe I should I reiterated this is for a Mendel 3 not an Ormerod
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dc42
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 04:09AM
Quote
bgkdavis
HEY ZPL!!!! how do I reverse the direction of the X axis with your firmware, maybe I should I reiterated this is for a Mendel 3 not an Ormerod

Use M569 P0 S0 in config.g. Or if you already have that command in config.g, change S0 to S1.


Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 04:13AM
this line?

M569 P0 S1 ; Reverse the X motor

tried changing it to S0 and commenting it out no effect!
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dc42
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 04:30AM
Quote
bgkdavis
this line?

M569 P0 S1 ; Reverse the X motor

tried changing it to S0 and commenting it out no effect!

Try again, that's definitely the correct line. Don't forget to re-upload config.g to the printer and reboot (e.g. using the Emergency Stop button) so that config.g gets processed again.

You can also send M569 P0 S0 to the printer via the web interface or Pronterface, and it should take effect immediately.


Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
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chrishamm
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 04:38AM
Yes I'm sorry, M569 didn't work as it should. I've just updated the file above though, so you can now test it on your Mendel.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 04:46AM
M569 P0 S0

when I try it from the web interface it give me an Error: invalid drive number
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chrishamm
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 04:49AM
Quote
bgkdavis
M569 P0 S0

when I try it from the web interface it give me an Error: invalid drive number

Then please download it again from [www.dropbox.com] and let me know if it works this time.
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bgkdavis
Re: Y axis shudder at high speeds
August 10, 2015 04:55AM
Thanks, that's a huge improvement!.... now.... what have I just loaded onto my printer!
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