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Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles

Posted by Kafledelius 
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Kafledelius
Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 21, 2016 02:35PM
Hello Fellow Reprappers!

So lately, i have been watching my printer closely due to installing a Flex3drive (WHICH I LOVE BTW!!!).
However, i've noticed that when my printer does circles - alot of vibrations happend.
Have any of you guys had that?
Any idea what could cause it? - I'm thinking maybe belts rubbing against cariages could be an issue - but i cant really see it happening confused smiley

Could over heated steppers cause this?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2016 02:35PM by Kafledelius.
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 07:46AM
If your steppers are running with a bit too much current they will run hot and make more harsh sounding noise. Try lowering the vref on the stepper drivers, carefully and measure the voltage from trim pot to GND make a note of it. I changed my motors but I'm running around 0.6v x and y, 0.3v on e (with flex3drive) and 0.8v on z (with dual belt z axis and 0.9 deg stepper. All motors run cold and quietly with no skipped steps. It takes a bit of time to dial them in and a bit of intuition.

If belts are rubbing you'll see black dust residue. Seems unlikely with an unmodified scalu.

Can you video it and host video somewhere?

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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PDBeal
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 12:19PM
I was getting a lot of vibrations and grinding and chunking on mine with the Ramps Controller. Replaced that with the Duet 0.8.5, and couldn't be happier. Runs smoother, and achieves higher speeds than the Ramps setup with only the controller change, and having the web interface to upload gcode to print makes it so much more reliable and less reliant on the computer. I did also replace the Z-Probe with an IR sensor as I couldn't ever get the Z-Probe to work properly through my voltage divider, as if the voltage divider was bogging down my 5V source.
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Kafledelius
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 12:53PM
Thank you for answering!

Actually, i do see some black residue near the structural pieces. How ever, i cant seem to find a way to handle it. It seems that the carriages belt holders are some how off?

Heres some pictures of the studdering. The one where it seems good is of the bottom, the other is the top.




The pictures below here is of my machine - notice the black residue. Can you see anything i've done wrong? or what might cause this?



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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 01:16PM
I was never a fan of the smartfriendz y slides so I redesigned them. [www.thingiverse.com]

Don't know if they fit the wood version.

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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Kafledelius
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 01:50PM
I don't see why not smiling smiley

What's the distance between rods?
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 01:53PM
It's between 39-40mm opinions vary but the top of the x carriage only has a partially constrained bearing to account for this.

The rod clamps are slightly different you'll need 4 quick release levers from the scalu release stls. Or I can add these to the thingiverse listing later on. I think I did a reinforced version.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2016 01:56PM by DjDemonD.

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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Kafledelius
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 02:18PM
Printing them right now smiling smiley

I'll let you know when i try and fit them if they work for the wooden version smiling smiley

However, do you see anything else wrong with my build?

I've slacked the belts a tad, and it seems to be working way better now... i'm guessing theres friction in the belts somewhere.
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 02:37PM
The build looks nice, the belts are all nice and straight and parallel where they need to be etc...

I think belt tension is a real challenge, maybe we need to come up with some type of belt tension measuring and monitoring gauge, maybe a pulley attached to some type of force gauge, then we can see the a and b belt tension at a glance, and compare with one another which tension settings seem to give the best performance.

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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Kafledelius
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 22, 2016 02:45PM
I agree smiling smiley

That would help a lot of different builds really..
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Kafledelius
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 25, 2016 06:15AM
DjDemond - Is your y-slides for 6mm? :/
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 25, 2016 06:18AM
No 8mm as I designed them for alu version

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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RodF
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 25, 2016 06:42PM
Quote
DjDemonD
The build looks nice, the belts are all nice and straight and parallel where they need to be etc...

I think belt tension is a real challenge, maybe we need to come up with some type of belt tension measuring and monitoring gauge, maybe a pulley attached to some type of force gauge, then we can see the a and b belt tension at a glance, and compare with one another which tension settings seem to give the best performance.

Extract from belt document

Sonic Tension Meter: The Sonic
Tension Meter (Figure 24) is an
electronic device that measures the
natural frequency of a free stationary
belt span and instantly computes the
static belt tension based upon the belt
span length, belt width, and belt type.
This provides accurate and repeatable
tension measurements while using a
nonintrusive procedure (the
measurement process itself doesn't
change the belt span tension). A
measurement is made simply by
plucking the belt while holding the
sensor close to the vibrating belt span.

I am a musician and use a tuning app on my phone. I just tested it on my Mendle 90 and got 68Hz on the X axis belt. For same length belts no problems for different belt lengths you would need to work out a constant which might be exponential.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2016 06:43PM by RodF.
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PDBeal
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 25, 2016 09:51PM
Ha, I never thought about the smart phone having an app for frequency tuning. We use frequency tuning for motor belts in the manufacturing plant that I work for when they do maintenance on some of the motors. It would at least give you an idea if your belt tension is the same on multiple belts, but your right, based on the length, you'd have to calculate what it should be.
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 26, 2016 02:56AM
Definitely worth trying a guitar tuning app then. I don't think there is a value for optimal belt tension it's more important that both belts have the same tension and that they are reasonably tight. So this is a good method for a spot check. I wouldn't over tighten them some of my original pla parts cracked under too much belt tension.

What I was thinking would be a combination tensioner and tension measuring device. Haven't got anywhere with it yet.

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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PDBeal
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 26, 2016 01:50PM
One thing I've run into. I'm reprinting my ALU parts with PETG and it is as easy as PLA, but I think I have an issue with my slicer config. The teeth in the head are not really defined well and the belts are a pain in the butt to slide in. I've printed the head part on a Stratasys uPrint SE Plus and the belts slide in without an issue. I definitely think this is a slicer issue. Have you had any issues reprinting some of the parts or does the Simplify3D gcode produce a better defined outline part?
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
June 26, 2016 03:40PM
I've printed quite sharp teeth with a 0.3 nozzle in abs. With a 0.4mm nozzle in petg I'd expect them to be a bit fuzzy. Maybe print them really slowly. When I use slic3r for these parts it prints the teeth far too fast for my liking. Haven't tried with simplify3d yet for anything like this, I'm still slowly getting into it, I've about a year of slic3r dependence to undo first.

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
July 18, 2016 12:50PM
Just been re-reading this and thought I'd mention to the OP - I've seen more stuttering since using the flex3drive also, and now trying much higher printing speeds than I used to use, as it requires a lot more step pulses (I'm running mine on 1/8th micro-stepping) than my direct drive extruder ever did. I wonder if moving over to using 1/4 or even 1/2 might lower the processing requirements on the mega? (Won't help much for motor noise though).

Interested in TMC 2100 drivers, can they do interpolation to higher micro-stepping rates from 1/4 micro-stepping as they do with turning 1/16 into effectively 1/256?

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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PDBeal
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
July 18, 2016 01:07PM
If speed and quality and noise is a goal, I'd highly recommend the Duet 0.8.5 controller. Its been great on my Smartrapcore Alu. I know they do this Duet Wifi board now, but I'm still skeptical on any new design that is still being developed. I think they've frozen the hardware, but have no real installation base beyond the prototype boards to know if it has any issues where as the Duet 0.8.5 I believe is a well proven board. I like mine, just wish it wasn't so expensive when you pair it with the PanelDue screen.
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
July 18, 2016 01:47PM
David made a point in another post, a tablet might be a good solution as a display/touch controller, I bought an 8inch windows 10 tablet the other day for £40 delivered with a year's warranty. Would make a very nice touch screen for a 3d printer. Whether its as reliable if you are going to use it to drip feed gcode from a host, I suspect not, but it can always be used to send to sd card and print. Its a quad core atom processor so it'll do reasonable speed slicing. Makes me wonder whether to cancel my pre-order for panel-due and just keep the pre-order for duet-wifi. I suppose I can always sell on the panel due if its no better than the windows tablet.

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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PDBeal
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
July 18, 2016 03:32PM
Issue in using the windows tablet would be your relying upon a wifi network to control the printer. Yes, you'd have the wifi network for the Duet Wifi, but I do like the fact the PanelDue is hardwired to the Duet 0.8.5 board so it works whether I plug Ethernet into it or not, (assuming I traveled somewhere with it or had to relocate it for a time being with no Ethernet)
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
July 18, 2016 03:46PM
That's a good point. What if I'm attaching the tablet via USB does that work the same as it does on ramps/mega?

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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PDBeal
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
July 18, 2016 10:05PM
I don't think you'd be able to use the web interface then and you'd have to use Pronterface or Repetier Host or something similar to talk to it through the USB, and to me it would be questionable if you could start print from the Duet like you can with the web interface or the PanelDue.
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DjDemonD
Re: Smartrapcore - Studdering in Circles
July 19, 2016 03:45AM
Okay thanks, that is useful knowledge. I don't think I picked up on the fact that it does not have an ethernet port at all. Oh well I suppose I'll give the panel due a go first. Although including a mini wifi AP in the electronics compartment for trips out if I use the tablet might be possible, or even wifi direct, although I've little experience using it or whether duet wifi can connect this way, I presume it can if I run software on the tablet to emulate an AP.

Looking forward to have a play with it, but its end of August for me. In the mean time I've a large, all metal delta to start to put together smiling smiley

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions
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