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Bowden Extruder recommendations needed

Posted by hedeon 
Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 06, 2018 06:31AM
Hi

Haven't posted much but have been long time lurker.
I am in the process of designing and building my own corexy printer, and by most part, I am trying to go on my own, sometimes I just need advice from someone more experienced.
My previous experience is with Prusa i3 clones using direct drive but for this large-scale Corexy I decided to go with Bowden setup, and boy, it made my grief. My main problem is with extruder grinding filament. Tried different spring tensions and 2 different extruders. Both are "printable":
[www.thingiverse.com]
[www.thingiverse.com]
Can someone recommend something really reliable? I understand there are lots of things to play within the slicer but need something mechanically strong and grippy as a base, then tune it in a slicer. I have been looking at Bontech BMG, but the price is really prohibitive, especially when I am considering using 3 or 4 extruders for multi-material.
Thank you for all advise.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2018 08:40AM by hedeon.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 07, 2018 12:43PM
I use a fliying extruder in a delta which is a bondtech bmg.... It works really well...
They are indeed expensive but they always work!

You could use this one [www.thingiverse.com] it is recommended by the dice 3d printer which is a very fast tiny printer.... Anyway my experience with bowden : the longer the worse.... Except from they ultimaker, i've never liked bowden....

Good luck smiling smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 12:44PM by Archiclem.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 07, 2018 01:15PM
I use the "all metal MK8" extruders for Bowden too. Just add a M6 pneumatic coupler instead of the heatbrake. Be aware, there are left and right hand versions.
I never got a kit with matching screws, so it's a bit of gambling. One bracket didn't even fit on a NEMA17, I had to widen the center hole.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 07, 2018 06:26PM
Quote
Archiclem
I use a fliying extruder in a delta which is a bondtech bmg.... It works really well...
They are indeed expensive but they always work!

You could use this one [www.thingiverse.com] it is recommended by the dice 3d printer which is a very fast tiny printer.... Anyway, my experience with Bowden : the longer the worse... Except from they ultimaker, i've never liked bowden....

Good luck smiling smiley

Yeah, Bondtech... It is tempting, for peace of mind, but then I cant justify that much just for the extruder (not yet). If this was just for one, then fine, I'd bite the bullet, but one of the reasons for the new printer was so I can play with multi-extruders and this builds up the price to something of $500!
For troubleshooting purposes, I have shortened my Bowden tube to just 42cm which isn't that long, and I still have problems. I will try the one from Thingiverse, but I am starting to learn and I think it has more to do with hobbed gears, filaments, and tensions than with the extruder body.

Quote
o_lampe
I use the "all metal MK8" extruders for Bowden too. Just add a M6 pneumatic coupler instead of the heatbrake. Be aware, there are left and right hand versions.
I never got a kit with matching screws, so it's a bit of gambling. One bracket didn't even fit on a NEMA17, I had to widen the center hole.

Now, this is a recommendation I didn't expect. Extruder for $5?? XD I actually still might have one laying around somewhere... If I didn't repurpose its parts for something else.... Worth checking out, thanks for a tip.


As I said, I am starting to appreciate that performance of extruder depends on how well its hobbed gear interacts with the filament. So far I have been using cheap eBay PLA, and as I have started to recognise the value of better filaments, I have moved to 3dFilaPrint. It is very flowy when melted, maybe it is too soft? With PETG I haven't had any problem so far but I only got half of the roll...
Also ordered Hobb-goblin from e3d, filament gear from robotdigg, and cloned titan. If any of these will not provide a solution then a fight might be between original e3d Titan, Bondtech and maybe Bulldog XL?
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 08, 2018 12:26PM
I think if you are open To robotdigg products you should look for their extruder.... They have a bunch wich are not that pricy.... I cannot say about bulldog XL but titan is as reliable as bondtech for my requirement which are pla petg &tpu. I think that you could go for cheap titan ripoff (trianglelab ones have been reviewed on the forum by demondj) .... But it won't be supporting the great e3D... Anyway....
On thingiverse Walter posted some dual drive gear extruder.... But I didn't had the time to test them.... At the endi will say, you pay for what you got. going for the real deal will give you the best result in long term...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2018 12:29PM by Archiclem.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 08, 2018 06:12PM
I've used BullDog XL and it is very reliable as long as you don't try to use it with flexible filaments. There is a gap between the drive gear and the tube that guides filament down into the hot-end and the filament can buckle in that gap. I managed to print TPU with the BullDog several times, but it was always took a lot of messing around to set it up. It's a very heavy extruder, so unless you want to keep your print speed down, you probably don't want to put it on the extruder carriage. Read through this and then take a close look at the way extruders are built. Think about what happens if you try to print flexible filament, if you run out of filament during a print, and a blocked hot-end.

The Titan handles flexible filament better than the bulldog, and if you run out of filament during a print, you can usually just feed more filament in and get back to printing. With the BullDog you have to take the hot-end off to take out the stub of filament that's left in the hot-end- probably not an issue with a Bowden set-up.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 09, 2018 03:23AM
I don't understand why people use Bowden with all its potential problems on a single extruder/hotend XY machine. On a Delta where mass is important, yes, but here ????
And a Bowden geared extruder using printed gears is a non sense.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2018 03:26AM by MKSA.


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 09, 2018 04:02AM
Quote
MKSA
I don't understand why people use Bowden with all its potential problems on a single extruder/hotend XY machine. On a Delta where mass is important, yes, but here ????
And a Bowden geared extruder using printed gears is a non sense.

I think it was explained here that the goal is to have 5 extruder or something... I am curious, where did you saw a bowden with printed gear ? And what would be the problem

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2018 04:03AM by Archiclem.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 09, 2018 12:31PM
I have very good results using Bowden extruders with printed gears. Specifically, the variant of this design [www.thingiverse.com] with the PTFE liner and these gears [www.thingiverse.com]. Works great when printing 1.75mm PLA.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 09, 2018 03:30PM
Quote
Archiclem
I think that you could go for cheap titan ripoff (trianglelab ones have been reviewed on the forum by demondj) .... But it won't be supporting the great e3D... Anyway....

Thank you. I would have already bought genuine e3d Titan if I was 100% sure it will solve my problem. That's why I have bought a knockoff. I know it is not the same quality but it might show a step in right direction, then I would buy from e3d again just to support them and justify buying more clones.

Quote
Archiclem
At the endi will say, you pay for what you got. going for the real deal will give you the best result in long term...

It is not always true, but I know what you mean.

Quote
the_digital_dentist
I've used BullDog XL and it is very reliable as long as you don't try to use it with flexible filaments.

Yeah, there is something in that all metal design that kind of validates the price... So far for several years, I had no need for TPU filaments, and I will still keep my Prusa clone with direct extruder just in case I will change my mind winking smiley

Quote
the_digital_dentist
The Titan handles flexible filament better than the bulldog, and if you run out of filament during a print, you can usually just feed more filament in and get back to printing. With the BullDog you have to take the hot-end off to take out the stub of filament that's left in the hot-end- probably not an issue with a Bowden set-up.

My plan for the situation like this is filament monitor/sensor and a filament unloading macro on my DuetEthernet. Boy, I love my Duet winking smiley Wink, wink dc42 winking smiley

Quote
MKSA
I don't understand why people use Bowden with all its potential problems on a single extruder/hotend XY machine. On a Delta where mass is important, yes, but here ????
And a Bowden geared extruder using printed gears is a non sense.

Well, slightly off topic, but I think you might read a lot about pros and cons of both solutions. I also cannot say why other people are using Bowden setups, only what is my reasoning for this configuration:
a) multi-extrusion, just for fun and experiments. I don't really need it, but it would be fun to have it.
b) on large scale corexy you need to use long timing belts (almost 2.5m each in my case). Longer belt will stretch more, and introduce ringing on sharp corners (really hate it on my Prusa i3 clone). You can combat it reducing moving mass from carriage...
c) sometimes it is good to leave your comfort zone and try something new winking smiley
Besides, printed gears on extruders are not specific to Bowden setups, as they are often used on direct drive extruders too. Anyway, these are not a cause of problems in Bowden extruders.

Quote
dc42
I have very good results using Bowden extruders with printed gears. Specifically, the variant of this design [www.thingiverse.com] with the PTFE liner and these gears [www.thingiverse.com]. Works great when printing 1.75mm PLA.

Thanks. Looks interesting, I like easy cleaning and that there are no unusual parts required to assemble one.

Anyway, I have just received Hobb Goblin from e3d, and inspecting it under a magnifying glass, side by side with MK8 hobbed gear I have been using so far, I think I know what is the problem. Looks like Archiclem was right, you get what you pay for winking smiley
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 15, 2018 10:17PM
bondtech qr.. best ever. I’m in the process of switching from titans to bmgs on direct extruder and i i looks forward to the more power.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 16, 2018 03:31AM
I've been using an airtripper for years and never giver me any problems, been on four different printers now.

https://airtripper.com/1764/airtrippers-direct-drive-bowden-extruder-v3-bsp-edition/][/url]
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 16, 2018 04:20PM
Thanks for recommendations.
In the meantime, there were some developments. I have fitted into one of the extruders now hobbed gear "hobb-goblin" from E3D, and there were cracking noises coming out from the extruder, Bowden tubes were popping out of collets, but it didn't grind the filament. Obviously, I have reduced motor current so it is skipping steps rather than destroying my extruder. Encouraged by the results next thing I did was to order the Titan from E3D. Hobbed gear on it has different tooth profile, not so aggressive as hobb-goblin, but still bites into filament very well. Then I have ordered DueX5 grinning smiley
So that was that really. Poorly machined MK8 gear... Simply need to remember that those gears are not equal, some are better, some much worse. I have received cloned Titan too... Terrible. Machined tooth profile is even not on the path of the filament...

Once I will finish my build and will iron out all small issues I am having now, then maybe I will start looking to increasing print speeds above 100mm/s, then I might need something stronger than Titan.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 17, 2018 02:30AM
Quote

I have received cloned Titan too... Terrible. Machined tooth profile is even not on the path of the filament...

That's what I had on my genuine Titan, too. Turns out, the plastic gear wasn't pressed deep enough on the output axis, so the gear pushed the arm lever out of the filament path. I could adjust it with some careful applied force. ( I used the small hammer winking smiley )
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Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 17, 2018 08:05AM
Get a direct drive...

In all seriousness the weight of a pancake stepper and a plastic direct drive extruder is nothing to worry about.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 17, 2018 08:54AM
Quote
o_lampe
Quote

I have received cloned Titan too... Terrible. Machined tooth profile is even not on the path of the filament...

That's what I had on my genuine Titan, too. Turns out, the plastic gear wasn't pressed deep enough on the output axis, so the gear pushed the arm lever out of the filament path. I could adjust it with some careful applied force. ( I used the small hammer winking smiley )

No, everything is in the right spot, except machined hobbed gear....
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 17, 2018 11:21AM
With multi-extrusion in mind, it might not be as effective. And the printer will be completely enclosed and carriage is already quite close to top cover. I designed it to fit under my desk, therefore, there is no option to make printer taller...
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 18, 2018 01:55AM
Quote
MatthewHall
Get a direct drive...

In all seriousness the weight of a pancake stepper and a plastic direct drive extruder is nothing to worry about.

I tried direct drive with a pancake stepper and it works nicely with 0.8mm filament diameter ( I made my own ).
But I doubt, the stepper would be strong enough for 1.75mm filament...
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 30, 2018 09:00AM
Forget about the PITA bowden setup and go with a REAL Titan extruder, pancake stepper, and E3D hotend. It will handle 1.75 mm no problem and even the Volcano hot end. And it's light weight.


Folger Tech 2020 i3 and FT-5 as well as modified JGAurora A5 with direct drive E3D/Titan. All running the BLTOUCH.
Great kits. Having fun and running the heck out of them.
Running Marlin 1.1.0 RC8 on the i3 and FT5. Custom firmware on A5.
Folger Tech Wiki board >[folgertech.wikia.com]
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 31, 2018 11:39AM
I think I have stated previously that I already have such system in my Prusa i3 style printer and why I don't want to go direct drive. The point of the new printer is to make things differently, experiment, push the limits. Besides, later in the thread, I have said that the problem was solved with using e3d hobb-goblins and Titan. Not sure how inputs like this contribute to the discussion at all. You are answering a very different question: "What is better, bowden, or direct drive?"
As for PITA bowden I have to say I love the prints I am getting, very smooth lines even at higher speeds. Got different issues to fix now, but that is not extruder related.
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
May 31, 2018 09:05PM
Point taken. Next time I see your name I'll just hit the 'flush' button. Don't need to be nasty about it!


Folger Tech 2020 i3 and FT-5 as well as modified JGAurora A5 with direct drive E3D/Titan. All running the BLTOUCH.
Great kits. Having fun and running the heck out of them.
Running Marlin 1.1.0 RC8 on the i3 and FT5. Custom firmware on A5.
Folger Tech Wiki board >[folgertech.wikia.com]
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
June 02, 2018 04:46PM
For info, I'm just in the process of replacing my 5 off E3D Titans with 5 off Bondtech BMGs. If you want to know why and/or you are serious about wanting to print multi colours or multi filaments, take a look at my blog (linked in sig). HTH

Edit. When you are buying 5 extruders, getting the wrong ones to start with can be a very expensive mistake (as I found out to my cost).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2018 04:51PM by deckingman.


[somei3deas.wordpress.com]
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
June 04, 2018 10:24AM
Quote
deckingman
For info, I'm just in the process of replacing my 5 off E3D Titans with 5 off Bondtech BMGs. If you want to know why and/or you are serious about wanting to print multi colours or multi filaments, take a look at my blog (linked in sig). HTH

Edit. When you are buying 5 extruders, getting the wrong ones to start with can be a very expensive mistake (as I found out to my cost).

Yes, I have been visiting your blog, lots of useful information there. Not sure if I am that serious about colours to justify 3-5 BMGs.... It is mainly for fun, and for the sake of doing it, no real application. But thanks for the tip...
Re: Bowden Extruder recommendations needed
August 20, 2018 02:45PM
Quote
adambrum
I've been using an airtripper for years and never giver me any problems, been on four different printers now.

https://airtripper.com/1764/airtrippers-direct-drive-bowden-extruder-v3-bsp-edition/][/url]

I know this post is from a few months ago, but I wanted to ask @adambrum about the airtripper. I've been building a CoreXY of my own for a couple years now. I've been sidetracked with other things but have started getting back into it. I downloaded and printed the airtripper long ago and was planning on using that. The last update to it was in 2012 which sort of concerns me as people are now printing many different filament types. What types of filament have you used with it? I'm on the fence about just ordering a titan instead.
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