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How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?

Posted by o_lampe 
How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 26, 2018 03:29AM
We've seen dual heads on one X-gantry and also dual X-gantries on one frame.
Is '4' the max. number of 'independent' printheads? Is it restricted because the belt routing gets messy?

Would it be easier with cable drive? The cables wouldn't need so much vertical space and are easier to cross.
Will we ever see a printer with 4 heads working simultaneously?
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 26, 2018 01:21PM
4 is the most I've seen, I gather it's a limit as to how many drivers you can hang off of a board as well as kinematics getting complicated, being on the same plane and all.
Tool changing looks to be more promising, if someone were to build a multiplexer board--a one driver board that switches what tool (extruder motor) it's running via g-code. Then you could fill the back wall of a printer with pre-loaded hotends.

Then of course, from there someone will want two tool changer heads...lol
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 26, 2018 05:20PM
In theory you could have more than 2 tool heads on a gantry, and more than 2 gantries. But each tool head you add reduces the travel available to each tool head, and each new gantry reduces the travel available to each gantry. So 2 gantries carrying 2 tool heads each is probably the practical limit.

Tool changing is more promising, you just need space to park all the tools. Unfortunately there is a patent on tool changing where the electrical contacts on the tool heads mate with contacts on the tool holder when they are picked up, rather than each one being permanently wired to the controller.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 26, 2018 08:01PM
A parent doesn't mean you can't make your own design and use it though. Just means you can't produce and sell it for others.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2018 08:02PM by obelisk79.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 27, 2018 01:12AM
Quote
Diggrr
4 is the most I've seen, I gather it's a limit as to how many drivers you can hang off of a board as well as kinematics getting complicated, being on the same plane and all.
Tool changing looks to be more promising, if someone were to build a multiplexer board--a one driver board that switches what tool (extruder motor) it's running via g-code. Then you could fill the back wall of a printer with pre-loaded hotends.

Then of course, from there someone will want two tool changer heads...lol

Pretty interesting idea using a multiplexer and of course we'd build a dual gantry printer with two rows of tools eventually grinning smiley

Using more than one nozzle at a time, isn't possible yet, but it's a hen/egg scenario.
If there's a printer which is able to print four identical parts at once, the slicer devs will come up with a gcode generator able to print one part with four extruders. (different nozzle size and/or filament colour)
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 27, 2018 04:36AM
The Leapfrog Bolt is an independent IDEX printer. Both heads are on the same X&Y, but capable of dividing the bed between them to print two (identical or mirrored) parts simultaneously from two different materials, as well as the usual two color/material printing we're used to seeing.
Getting closer.
Fun printer to watch, too!

Oh, and they say the chicken came first...the protein that makes the egg shell is only produced by hens...if you can trust the interwebz. winking smiley

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2018 04:45AM by Diggrr.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 27, 2018 04:25PM
Quote
Diggrr
The Leapfrog Bolt is an independent IDEX printer. Both heads are on the same X&Y, but capable of dividing the bed between them to print two (identical or mirrored) parts simultaneously from two different materials, as well as the usual two color/material printing we're used to seeing.

Surely all IDEX printers can do that?



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 28, 2018 06:06PM
Maybe it's easier to use one nozzle / diamond / 3in1 nozzle solutions and improve how to retract the filament for exchanging or mixing filament.

This way you win the possibility to mix the filaments for true color and ease printer construction.

There are 3d printed routers with coolant channels, there could also be even more specialized nozzles for 3d printing.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 29, 2018 01:19AM
The reason I asked this, was to find an excuse to build a new cable driven printer.

I though of extruding ketchup, mayonaise, mostard a.s.o. simultaneously.
Therefor a tool changing system would be less useful.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 29, 2018 01:36AM
smileys with beer

Mixing them would be funny, but not so useful.

It's a good idea. A cable systems makes it easier with respect to all those needed pulleys. You can guide the wires easier than belts.

Good luck for your first 3d printed curry wurst!
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 31, 2018 01:13AM
Robot arms would be best suited to 3d printing a single object with multiple heads simutaneously, as a multi-head gantry system would get in its own way far too often to be of any real benefit.
The slicer would be the biggest hurdle, that and getting some robot arms with enough precision to be worth even trying. Though I've seen videos of such a beast with two robots, can't find the link.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
August 31, 2018 12:18PM
Quote
o_lampe
The reason I asked this, was to find an excuse to build a new cable driven printer.

I though of extruding ketchup, mayonaise, mostard a.s.o. simultaneously.
Therefor a tool changing system would be less useful.

Sounds like you planning a high tech hot dog stall. What about the onionssmiling smiley


[somei3deas.wordpress.com]
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
September 01, 2018 01:38AM
Quote
prot0typ1cal
Robot arms would be best suited to 3d printing a single object with multiple heads simutaneously, as a multi-head gantry system would get in its own way far too often to be of any real benefit.
The slicer would be the biggest hurdle, that and getting some robot arms with enough precision to be worth even trying. Though I've seen videos of such a beast with two robots, can't find the link.

I agree. I made a sketch of four SCARA arms on one print bed a few years ago and also made suggestions how to establish 'handshake' signals between 4 controllers to avoid collisions. It would've worked with usuall slicers, but required an upgraded printer firmware.

Quote

Sounds like you planning a high tech hot dog stall. What about the onions smiling smiley

We could add a pick&place head for salad, tomato, cucumbers, cheese winking smiley
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
September 01, 2018 07:07AM
Quote
dc42

Surely all IDEX printers can do that?

Of course, but firmware and slicer would have to work together, so it's found on proprietary systems only.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
September 02, 2018 03:23AM
Quote
Diggrr
Quote
dc42

Surely all IDEX printers can do that?

Of course, but firmware and slicer would have to work together, so it's found on proprietary systems only.

No, the slicer doesn't need to be involved if you want to print two identical or mirrored parts simultaneously on an IDEX printer, and there are non-proprietary IDEX printers that do it. RepRapFirmware supports both as standard.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2018 03:25AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
September 02, 2018 09:58PM
Quote
Diggrr
The Leapfrog Bolt is an independent IDEX printer. Both heads are on the same X&Y, but capable of dividing the bed between them to print two (identical or mirrored) parts simultaneously from two different materials, as well as the usual two color/material printing we're used to seeing.
Getting closer.
Fun printer to watch, too!

Oh, and they say the chicken came first...the protein that makes the egg shell is only produced by hens...if you can trust the interwebz. winking smiley

It's not a corexy however, it's a stacked cartesian or whatever it's called like BCN Sigma
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
September 02, 2018 11:36PM
Quote
ruyvieira
It's not a corexy however, it's a stacked cartesian or whatever it's called like BCN Sigma
But it should be easy to implement it in coreXY.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
September 05, 2018 01:13AM
Quote
piper3d
Quote
ruyvieira
It's not a corexy however, it's a stacked cartesian or whatever it's called like BCN Sigma
But it should be easy to implement it in coreXY.

Yea, it's called coreXYU
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
September 05, 2018 03:18AM
Quote
prot0typ1cal
Yea, it's called coreXYU
Just checked coreXYU

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2018 03:20AM by piper3d.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
October 13, 2018 02:29PM
Is this the patent? [patents.google.com]
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
January 31, 2019 03:41AM
Would that do the trick for 3 independent extruders?
Attachments:
open | download - 002.jpg (419.2 KB)
open | download - 001.jpg (286.5 KB)
open | download - 003.jpg (204.9 KB)
VDX
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
January 31, 2019 04:36AM
... another idea for an "unlimited" count of extruders or other tool-heads is to place them in fixed positions (top/bed/sides/...) and then change the coordinate-system in respect to the selected toolhead and move the build-plate with a robot-arm cool smiley

I'm actually developing for a R&D-project a "multi-tool-head" with a similar approach ... but more focussed on "industrial" AM, so no disclosure until it's published (or cancelled) eye rolling smiley


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
January 31, 2019 02:06PM
Unless I’m not understanding the problem correctly, would flipping the core xy upside down so having a moving x y build platform and an extruder matrix lifting away from the print on z (think VMC but with print heads instead of a spindle) be the answer? If each extruder had named work offset it would be trivial to integrate into slicing software.
Limiting factor would be moving the beds weight and cooling the heat breaks of tightly packed extruders, I’m thinking 3x3 would be optimum with center as 0 and offsets from there

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2019 02:11PM by TheHandsomeDog.
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
January 31, 2019 03:17PM
We've supported CoreXYU in RepRapFirmware for quite a long time. But I recently added "generalised Core Kinematics" to RepRapFirmware, which means that it can support any machine architecture for which the motion of each axis is a linear combination of the motion of each motor. So you can have as many independent heads as you like, as long as you can design the belt system, and the total number of axis + extruder motors doesn't exceed the limits of your electronics (which is 12 for the Duet WiFi and Duet Ethernet). One person is already using this to implement an IDEX printer based on MarkForged kinematics - see [hackaday.io] for the belt path.

Another approach is tool changing, for example the E3D tool changer which is in beta.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2019 03:18PM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
January 31, 2019 04:43PM
Quote
dc42
We've supported CoreXYU in RepRapFirmware for quite a long time. But I recently added "generalised Core Kinematics" to RepRapFirmware, which means that it can support any machine architecture for which the motion of each axis is a linear combination of the motion of each motor. So you can have as many independent heads as you like, as long as you can design the belt system, and the total number of axis + extruder motors doesn't exceed the limits of your electronics (which is 12 for the Duet WiFi and Duet Ethernet). One person is already using this to implement an IDEX printer based on MarkForged kinematics - see [hackaday.io] for the belt path.

Another approach is tool changing, for example the E3D tool changer which is in beta.

That's really good news David. I've checked the link and it's very similar.
I'm just afraid of wasting my build (I'm really keen to do it). I know zero about programming. Do you think the kinematics I've draw would be easy to implement using duetwifi (in terms of fw configuration)?

Thanks

Raphael
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
January 31, 2019 05:41PM
Its looks to me that your diagrams show a regular CoreXY system plus two additional carriages using MarkForged-style kinematics, with all 3 carriages running on the same X gantry. If so, then the generalised Core kinematics in RRF will support that. But I've no idea how well the mechanics would work in practice.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2019 05:43PM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: How many independent printheads are possible on one CoreXY?
February 01, 2019 04:27AM
Quote
dc42
Its looks to me that your diagrams show a regular CoreXY system plus two additional carriages using MarkForged-style kinematics, with all 3 carriages running on the same X gantry. If so, then the generalised Core kinematics in RRF will support that. But I've no idea how well the mechanics would work in practice.

Thanks again, David.
I'll start the drawings and see how can I squeeze the belts in that arrangement, but I still think is doable.



Raphael
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