Questions about TronXY X5SA April 19, 2020 08:07PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 12:21AM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 12:52AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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obelisk79
I mean your answer is to toss in a $130 controller into a $300 printer?
You can get outstanding, reliable results with any widely available board. Then use Klipper, RepRapFirmware (its been ported to at least the LPC series architecture) or Marlin to get out of the closed source malarkey TronXY is pulling.
Hey, it's your cash, the Maestro will certainly do the job and it should at that price but it isn't the only answer to your problem.
Regarding the stock controller, a few pictures of it in high resolution might help.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 09:03AM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 5,780 |
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 09:31AM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 12:27PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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the_digital_dentist
$130 controller in a $300 printer? Why not?
One of the things that makes a crappy $300 printer crappy is the crappy controller that comes with it. A lot of people buy crappy printers thinking they are going to upgrade them into good machines, but if the attitude is that you should only replace a $40 controller with a $50 controller because it's only a $300 printer, you're going to end up with a slightly less crappy machine and no real improvement to show for the extra work and expense. One day, when you decide you've had enough of that crappy printer, which parts will you be reusing in the next, hopefully better machine? The $50 controller, or the $130 controller?
If you've used other controllers and a Duet, you know the difference between compiling firmware to make config changes and simply editing a text file and rebooting, and being able to tweak performance on the fly. How much support can you get for that $40 controller board if you don't speak Chinese?
When you spend money on better stuff, you're not just getting better hardware, you're also buying time and reducing frustration. That's gotta be worth something.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 12:30PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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obelisk79
I admitted in my response that the Maestro would work well. But in a simple 4 motor printer the benefit really comes from the software and not the hardware of the board itself. Like we discussed in the other thread where I brought up Klipper, it also allows for-on-the fly configuration changes. I seriously dislike firmwares like Marlin if for no other reason than the requirement to reflash to make adjustments to the configuration. Klipper, like RRF only requires simple text file adjustments and a literal 3 second firmware restart for changes to take effect. In some facebook 3d printing communities, I smack my forehead watching people gripe about trying to constantly compile their firmware and mess with configuration header files in VSCode. Who needs that stress? No one does, however Marlin remains the most widely known/recognized/used firmware out there.
DC42 is an awesome engineer, and you are correct that he provides EXCELLENT support, although I've been a bit critical of him self-promoting so hard on this forum in the past. That said, he designs using the 'kitchen sink' approach. Most people just don't need that degree of beastly hardware. The STM32F103 arm processor has enough overhead for probably 99% of hobbyist printers out there, and there are large communities of users who help each other for most of the common chinese boards although I find them incredibly simple to figure out. You could argue there's no engineering like over-engineering but if I was going to spend the extra money on a cheap Chinese printer, I'd look at improving the likely mechanical issues it'll have first.
For example, the TronXY 5SA appears to use the V-Slot linear motion system. It's a surprisingly good system, but the delrin wheels typically fail early and also have flex especially if they are cheap chinese-knockoffs. Upgrading to polycarbonate wheels make a noticeable difference. Changing out the bowden tube for a tighter clearance 1.85/1.9mm tube and looser radius into the hot end or something like the flex3drive would provide a dramatic improvement. Then there are general quality of use comfort features like the cheap fans typically found on these printers that are noisy and make sharing a room with one potentially unpleasant. So, if on a limited budget, some decisions have to be made regarding resource allocation that really depends on the person making those decisions. I think there are valid arguments on both sides of the coin.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 01:55PM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 5,780 |
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 02:06PM |
Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 363 |
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 02:45PM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 03:54PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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the_digital_dentist
Two z axis motors can be handled the way that Prusa does it in the i3.
The Z axis motors lose sync on power-up when they jump. They don't lose sync during a print, or as long as the motors have power. In the Prusa machines, the X axis will tilt, in the Tronxy machine the bed will tilt (roll) when the motors lose sync. Prusa resyncs the motors/Z axis screws by driving the X axis to the Zmax position, essentially forcing it into the mechanical stops at the end of the Z axis. Those stops are positioned so that the X axis is perpendicular to the Z axis when it's jammed against the stops, so moving the X axis back down to print position enables you to print again.
You could do the same in the Tronxy machine- run the bed to the bottom of the Z axis right up against the stops by telling it to go further than the stops. If the stops aren't positioned so they will level out the bed (at least in the roll direction), put in spacers or shims or whatever you need to ensure it will be level when it hits the stops. From there you just move the bed back up to print position. If you don't want it to get noisy when you're leveling the bed, reduce the current to the Z axis motors while you're driving the bed into the stops. You can do that with a macro in RRF on the Duet, called every time the board boots up. I'm not sure how you do that with other boards. There's no need for independent control of the Z axis motors.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 03:55PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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the_digital_dentist
Yes, of course. Then you'd never have to resync the screws because they'd never lose sync in the first place.
In the bad old days, printers had unflat, often flexible beds, on stupid 4 point mounts (many still do) and you had to keep tweaking the bed manually before every print. Some people got the idea that the solution to the problem was to have the printer do all that tweaking for you, so instead of analyzing why the tweaking was necessary, they just accepted it and started applying one kludge after another.
The purpose of leveling the bed is to ensure the first layer of the print sticks for the duration of the print. It's a reliability issue. You can build the printer so the first layer will stick every time without any screwing around, or you can build it so it has to keep releveling itself and compensating for a bed that isn't flat. Does adding more electronics, motors, and cables increase reliability? Judging by the posts I see in forums like this one, I don't think so. Does it cost less than building the printer so it doesn't need all that stuff? I don't think so. Autotramming and flatness compensation do make for some impressive youtube videos. Printers that "just work" are boring.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 04:43PM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 05:23PM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 05:32PM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 20, 2020 05:54PM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 03:02AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 1,007 |
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obelisk79
Couldn't you mechanically link up the two leadscrews with some belt and pulleys and get the same result? It's a bit crude but simple.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 03:29AM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 14,672 |
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dlc60
Can the Duet Maestro controller hardware/software, level a bed by moving each stepper (side) independently to its respective zero end-stop?
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 07:55AM |
Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 363 |
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 08:45AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 1,007 |
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obelisk79
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MKSA
If it is simple, it is not crude ! It is the smart way to do it !
CRUDE: constructed in a rudimentary way.
Crude still fits. It's a functional, reliable low-tech solution which I use on my own printer.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 09:32AM |
Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 363 |
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MKSA
And what do you consider a high tech, non rudimentary solution then ????
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 10:29AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 1,007 |
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obelisk79
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MKSA
And what do you consider a high tech, non rudimentary solution then ????
The unnecessary solutions people use like 2 and 3 motor bed leveling, mesh bed compensation, and quirky bed sensors like bltouch or piezo ones.
Don't take my statements as implying that low-tech is a bad thing. Low tech means simpler, probably more reliable, and most certainly cheaper. But hey, like any other snake-oil solution, 3 motor leveling and automatic mesh compensation using bed sensors looks cool and impresses people to watch. While I'd rather not deal with those types of 'features' personally, they do work for people so I try not to judge.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 01:02PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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MKSA
Quote
obelisk79
Quote
MKSA
And what do you consider a high tech, non rudimentary solution then ????
The unnecessary solutions people use like 2 and 3 motor bed leveling, mesh bed compensation, and quirky bed sensors like bltouch or piezo ones.
Don't take my statements as implying that low-tech is a bad thing. Low tech means simpler, probably more reliable, and most certainly cheaper. But hey, like any other snake-oil solution, 3 motor leveling and automatic mesh compensation using bed sensors looks cool and impresses people to watch. While I'd rather not deal with those types of 'features' personally, they do work for people so I try not to judge.
Then instead of low tech, the correct word would be "ingenious" ! The "simple" solution often requires more thinking than the complex, obvious ....ones. Fact is the people going the "complex" route even fail in implementing it while the ingenious could but choose not to implement it. Not to mention arguing that it must be better because it is complex backed with the ultimate argument: "everybody does it" or "it works for me" !
To simplify is a complex process !
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 01:04PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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dc42
Quote
dlc60
Can the Duet Maestro controller hardware/software, level a bed by moving each stepper (side) independently to its respective zero end-stop?
Yes, using either separate endstops or alternatively just the Z probe.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 02:50PM |
Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 363 |
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 21, 2020 10:06PM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 22, 2020 12:28AM |
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Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 22, 2020 12:44AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 619 |
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obelisk79
I'd only argue that the linear rail 'upgrade' was probably unnecessary. V-wheels really are an excellent linear motion system if assembled properly.
You've done a lot to that printer, good stuff, and for what it's worth... Sometimes, I find doing things the hard way rather enjoyable and educational too.
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 22, 2020 10:35PM |
Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 3 |
Re: Questions about TronXY X5SA April 22, 2020 11:34PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 61 |
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obelisk79
I'd only argue that the linear rail 'upgrade' was probably unnecessary. V-wheels really are an excellent linear motion system if assembled properly.
You've done a lot to that printer, good stuff, and for what it's worth... Sometimes, I find doing things the hard way rather enjoyable and educational too.