ABS on Glass with abs juice

Hello

Thanks for all the help and advice in this forum and from the reprap community in general.

I've just finished building my repstrap mendel and I've been printing ABS on a heated glass bed with kapton tape @ 100 C. The parts stick too well and I need a hammer and chisel to remove them which ruins the kapton. I also find the kapton hard to apply to the glass without trapping air bubbles.

I just tried ABS juice (10mm of abs filament dissolved in 10ml acetone) on the heated glass bed (no kapton) and it works really well. It's easy to apply (smear a thin film onto the glass with a tissue), the parts adhere to the surface and the glass leaves a good finish on them. And they’re easy to remove when they're done. No need to remove the old ABS film from the glass; just wipe it with a tissue with some more ABS juice on it and you're ready to print again.

I tried using a paintbrush but that just made a mess. It seems to work best with a very thin film . The glass should just look slightly misted after you apply it.

Some slight lifting at corners on some of the first prints I’ve tried but no worse than I sometimes got with kapton and all acceptable so far. The adhesion is not as strong as kapton but that’s good because I can remove the parts easily without damaging them.

I think this method looks very promising.

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[www.azadmendel.blogspot.com]

Have you tried letting the glass cool a little, then putting it in the freezer for about 10 minutes. I print on aluminium / kapton and freezing the plate works quite well you can bang the parts off with a quick tap on the edge of a table. It should work better on glass than aluminium.

Yes, I tried the freezer and it was easier to get the parts removed but I still need to use a hammer. There's a risk of breaing the glass and damaging the parts. The abs juice is much quicker and easier. I just cool the bed a bit and I can remove the parts by hand. I don't need to remove the glass from the printer and it's ready to print again in a couple of minutes.

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[www.azadmendel.blogspot.com]

I print ABS with kapton on 2mm glass at 120C and its perfect. After my prints I let it cool down to 100C and blow some air on the edges and it comes out without any effort or warping on the parts. No hammer is needed, When i used to print with the nozzle at a lower starting height I had that issue. distance between nozzle and bed should be 2 copy paper thickness.

Ok. I guess there must be something wrong with the way I was using kapton, or with the kapton itself. But other people seem to have the same problem.

I set the nozzle so a single sheet of paper slides under it, with skeinforge Bottom 'Additional Height over Layer Thickness' at 0.5. I'm printing 0.4mm layers at a 'Width over Thickness ratio' of 1.8. My heatbed will only go up to 100 C.

If you printed abs on kapton at 100 C would your prints be easier or harder to remove than at 120?

I've done more printing with the abs juice and it's working really well. A pleasure to use after the struggle I was having with kapton. But I only finished building my printer a couple of weeks ago so I don't have much experience. Have others tried this method and found a problem with it?

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[www.azadmendel.blogspot.com]

The higher the temperature the first layer is at the better it sticks. I currently use 140C for the first layer for ABS on Kapton and 110C after that. The ABS I use won't stick reliably at 100C. Unfortunately the Prusa PCB bed will not get that hot with 12V.

I use the correct layer height for the first layer. Lower will make it stick better, but leaves a ridge around the object. Higher makes it stick less but leaves gaps in the bottom of the object. I haven't tried ABS juice on glass yet. I have tried it on FR4 but it tends to leave a skin on the bottom of the object.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 09:03AM by nophead.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I might try my pcb heatbed at a higher voltage. I think ramps 1.4 provides for that. But so far my abs is sticking well at 100 C.

When I first tried abs juice I used a paintbrush and it was too thick and uneven. A small amount on a tissue quickly wiped over the glass leaves a thin even film and the finish on the bottom of the part is better than I got with kapton. I don't have to re-coat the glass for every print but usually do because it's easy.

Perhaps it would be different with other batches of abs; I've only tried the filament from one supplier.

When I was using kapton I cleaned it with acetone between prints but there was usually some small bits of abs (eg dust from the extruder pinch wheel) on the heatbed when I did it. So the acetone was probably smearing a fine film of abs on the surface. When I now see how a thin film of abs changes glass from a surface that abs won't stick to, to one it sticks well to, I wonder if this effect might cause some of the variable adhesion results that different people seem to have with kapton by increasing the strength of the bond?

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[www.azadmendel.blogspot.com]

ABS slug works, but its kind of a hassle to apply every time. I'm able to get my heated bed to 140C with using just 12V

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___________________________________________________
Kreativ-e
Tinkerine Studio

What is ABS slug? A thicker solution? In acetone?

Are you using a pcb heatbed or alu clad resistors? I can't get mine above 100 C but my heatbed is a bit of a heatsink. And I probably need more insulation under it.

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[www.azadmendel.blogspot.com]

its the ABS juice that you used, just different terms that people go by.

Mine is a pcb heated bed.

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___________________________________________________
Kreativ-e
Tinkerine Studio

I use a very dilute ABS / Acetone solution applied on glass with a paintbrush. By far the best adhesion, very little warping (and then only on certain prints), with the heatbed at about 90C. ABS will stick as low as about 75C on this. Higher temperatures give better bonding though, which I find useful if the parts have a small footprint. Getting prints off is easy, but you need to trim around the bottom layer as you tend to get a very thin film coming off with it. Usually a minute with a knife does the trick.
The juice does have to be very dilute, though. My first few attempts using this method resulted in a bond so strong that I actually pulled flakes out of the 2mm glass with larger prints. I was surprised the glass didn't shatter when this happened. I have an old coffee jar with about 100ml Acetone and a few bits of scrap ABS bunged in. I have a 1 inch natural bristle brush with a wooden handle that I keep in the jar and give the plate a quick wash over before a print. The acetone evaporates practically instantly and the plate is ready to print on in seconds. If the juice starts to look a little thick, a top up with acetone to dilute it restores it. Obviously, the lid is kept on when not in use. And I try to remember not to smoke when doing it! I don't really want to go

I also use a heated glass bed, I spray some varnish on it when I want to print ABS, the glass is heated at 100°C for the first layer, 80°C after, It sticks very well and pops out by itself when the bed cools.
I will try and compare with "ABS juice".

I find the thinner a film of abs I apply, the better it works, so far. I cool the bed to about 60 C and the prints lift off the glass. Then I redistribute the film of abs with some acetone or a little more abs juice on a tissue in a small circular pattern. I found the paintbrush or a side to side movement left streaks. I tried applying the abs solution when the bed was at 100 C and that didn't work. The acetone evaporated too quickly.

I had some PET tape on order and I tried that yesterday. I found it slightly easier to remove the prints than I did with kapton but still very difficult.

Petrus, what kind of varnish do you use?

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[www.azadmendel.blogspot.com]

Apply your Kapton to the glass like they apply Glass tints,

Take the glass off the machine, cut the strips of Kapton and dump them in a sink with soapy water,

When you apply them now they won’t stick instantly, (more soap = more slide)

Use an old card to squeegee the excess soap out and let it dry (over night or a quick blast in the oven at the 100 mark will do it) just make sure its dry before putting it near you electronics

Works wonders for me, with the 50mm wide stuff, and the slide prior to squeegieing means I get tidy seams,

No reason it wont work just as well with 150mm rolls,

Cooling seems to be the key with it, below 90 and I’ve got a reasonable chance of removing without damaging, my end.gcode cools it off to 90 and waits if I’m likely to be about and want to start another print.

Rob

@snaka

I'm very intrigued by this ABS juice method of yours. Since you mentioned that it sticks so well, have you tried it with unheated bed?

Just your regular glass without the heat turned on.

Fantastic thread, and awesome information.

We have been having a lot of issues with keeping the print stuck to the bed (ABS, heated glass bed w/tape). The ABS juice works fantastic, and gives us a larger temperature window for the bed.

Thanks again for this awesome idea, it has helped a lot

@ijmok, thanks for the tip re kapton and soapy water. I just tried it and it was so easy to apply the tape. Great . I'll dry it over night and try it on the heatbed tomorrow. I'm still using kapton and pet tape for some difficult prints where I need strong adhesion to prevent lifting, but I always had trouble getting it onto the glass without air bubbles.

@pazu, I tried it on an unheated bed but I couldn't get it to stick at all. I've been using it at 100 C (which is as high as my heatbed will go). At that temperature it sticks well but not as strongly as kapton or pet tape.

@ikilledkenny, good to hear the abs juice works for you too. I think I first saw it mentioned in a discussion on Nophead's blog but couldn't find any details in the forums on how to use it. I started the thread to ask if other's have tried it or found problems with it. I'm still having a lot of success with it.

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[www.azadmendel.blogspot.com]

I have tried two different methods of applying the ABS juice.

1) Cold (or coldish) glass. With very thin ABS juice (a lot of acetone little ABS). I use a paper towel to apply, leaves a very light haze. Works well for hot beds (95 - 110). Part removal is also very easy, usually need nothing more then a sharp knife.

2) Hot glass, very thick ABS juice. Still use a paper towel to apply but because the glass is still hot to apply use a dabbing action. Because leaves a very thick rough film on the glass. Very strong (cool beds work very well 70 - 90), but removal can be a pain, and can leave a skin on the bottom of your part.

I personally use the first one for general prints, and the second one only when I want to make sure the part sticks or when I want to use a fan.

I used this method until I bought a piece of high temp glass and started printing on that. ABS will stick to it at 130º C and they release automatically when cooled.

I do not use the ABS/acetone mixture anymore since I have tried to coat the glass with sugar water at 100° C. I print at 110° C then. Works well and smells much better.

theodleif Wrote:
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> I do not use the ABS/acetone mixture anymore since
> I have tried to coat the glass with sugar water at
> 100° C. I print at 110° C then. Works well and
> smells much better.


Nice to know. How the heck did you ever think about trying that at first ?

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Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

Your sugar water method sounds interesting.
What is the specifics of your sugar water method?

What is your ratio of water to sugar?
How are you appling the mixture to the bed?
Do you lower the bed temp after the first layer?

I just tried with painting on a saturated sugar solution at 110C (let evaporate), then print

I got very poor results.

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www.Fablicator.com

@Andrew Diehl:

Strange that sugar water doesn't work for you. Especially since eric1000 reported the same results as mine. Maybe a saturated solution is too much. According to [en.wikipedia.org] this would mean 200 g sugar on 100 ml water. I use a solution of 8-10g sugar on 100 ml. The mirror tile I am printing on looks like this: [forums.reprap.org] when sugar has been applied.

@jakowisp:

Actually I print on a mirror tile with Prusa's heated bed below. I use a sugar solution of approx. 8 g in 100 ml Water. When the bed has reached 100° C I take a paintbrush and "paint" the sugar water on the glass tile. At 110° C I start printing.

The method didn't fail a single time. When cooling down you hear some cracking at 80° C. Afterwards the printed parts can be removed easily from the tile without any knife.

How big of a part were you printing?

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www.Fablicator.com

The big gear from [www.thingiverse.com] for instance.

DeuxVis Wrote:
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> Nice to know. How the heck did you ever think
> about trying that at first ?

I didn't. I tried out a lot before. When I discovered that PLA sticks well on cold copier film, but only rough side up, I learned that copier film is coated by a primer.

So I searched for a primer for glass and ABS. Prusa had already told me about his findings about ABS/acetone on sanded glass, but I didn't think that is very healthy at all. Finally I discovered that sugar is an ideal primer.

Meanwhile I think beer would do also, but I haven't tried yet.

So far, the only way I've been able to get ABS to stick is to put blue tape on my heated glass bed. I read this thread about ABS juice and decided to give it a try, and although I'm getting better adhesion than I do if I try to print on the bare glass, I'm still getting very poor adhesion. I've tried a bunch of variations (thick/thin mixes of Acetone/ABS, bed temps from 110 to 130, etc etc), and I still can't get good adhesion with this method. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

Willy in the german forum has solved polyetherimide in dichlorometane and painted this onto an anodized aluminium plate. He reports excellent results.

Greetings! I just tried the ABS juice trick on a sanded mirror and got great results. No warping and easy removal. Although it does leave a skin on the part. A small price to pay to not use kapton...