ABS on Glass with abs juice

I just wanted to say THANK YOU for this awesome tip. It seemed like 50% of my prints were damaging the kapton at least a little bit when I tried to remove them (ripples, tears, etc). And putting new kapton on isn't a quick task when you also need to re-level the bed afterwards. I took my kaptoned glass off and put a clean sheet of glass on, then tried the ABS juice. The first time around it didn't go too well, but that may have been due to having the wrong bed temp (bad gcode) or not having enough ABS juice on the glass. Now I've been applying the ABS juice liberally, bringing the bed temp up to 100C, and prints are coming out great. The best part is that it's so easy to remove the part and then re-apply the juice. I'm currently doing a semi-large print - 30 mins in and no lift at all. :-)

But you do not inhale the acetone, or do you? That wouldn't be very healthy.

Wanted to say thanks for the ABS juice tip!

And the sugar solution idea is also truly innovative! Going to try it out!

Cheerio!
Aakash.

[http://ahagadgets.wordpress.com]

I tried the ABS juice method, but probably still got too much ABS left on the glass. printing the first layers at 120C glass temp and 250C ABS temp, and perfect bottom layer (0.2mm), caused perfect adherence of the print to the glass. after the print was finished, the 2.2mm glass sheet warped by 2mm across the 200mm... the piece also didn't come loose by itself, and required careful lifting with my painters/putty knife... when it finally came off, it ripped a chunk of glass out of the glass itself:

I've also had this happen, stuck so well it peeled shards of glass off.

I think it was because I left the ABS juice to dry overnight and printed on it the next day. Same day and heat dried prints always came off smoothly.

I've since stopped using this method and rely solely on heat for adherence.

anyone ever tried acrylic floor wax?, wipe it on, it evaporates to a dry sticky bed in about a minute. parts pop off when printing complete.

I've been using this method for a few months now, but I use a pretty heavily concentrated ABS solution.
I tried the lighter concentrate, and that seems to work fine - but more often than not, I probably tend to use a way more concentrated solution than necessary (sometimes the glass is nearly opaque w/ a thick layer of dried ABS sludge on it...)
there's no rational reason behind it - it's more likely because I lost too many prints to warping + curling, so now when I'm doing large, critical prints I want to make extra sure things stay flat + bonded w/ the glass. w/ my heated bed @ 90C, these prints aren't going _anywhere._

I've never pulled any glass shards when removing the prints though, and I'm using the cheap 3mm 2$ hardware store glass.
here's my process:
_ I add some extra gcode in slic3r so at the end of the print, the bed's centered + the fan is turned on full (I'm using a re-purposed 12V server-cooling fan, so it's like a mini-turbine.)
_ I wait until the bed's room temp. - there's all sorts of nice cracking and popping as the print slowly detaches from the glass
_ I cut an outline around the print w/ a razor, and I slowly wedge a sharpened metal putty knife around all the edges of the print until it pops right off.
so far this method's given me the most consistently good quality results (even though the bed can sometimes look like a janky crated moon landscape.) this is probably overkill, and in reality I'll probably reduce the concentration of the ABS juice in the future - but for now I have too many critical prints in the pipeline to muck about w/ experimenting.

I have moved to more and more dilute solutions and it seems to stick better and doesn't leave any skin on the object. I also means it doesn't need to match the same colour. I.e. I can use white solution, even for black objects.

I have had it pull scabs off the glass though. I think what happens is the stuff at the outside that rarely gets built on stays there a long time and burns brown. It I then build something near the edge is sticks like hell and gets brown stains on it. That is when it can break the glass. The solution is to always wipe the whole glass with new solution, even the bits rarely used.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

that's my experience too, nophead. I first used a rather thick soulution, but it gave me more warp etc. Now I use a very sparse solution, it get's objects to stick better, less warping, less cleaning up. Thin layers of abs juice also make it easier to (re)whipe the entire build bed.


/tom

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regards,
Tom

I printing on beer and it's very very good stick abs to glass!

@ Joergen Geerds, I've had the same problem. I saw it more on borosilicate glass. After I broke that piece I went to cheap picture frame glass from Lowe's and haven't had issues with craters pulling out. However they do break more easily.

I use a thin mixture of ABS+acetone and paint it onto the bed with a cheap brush. This leaves a bit of a texture to the surface. I've played with mix ratios and bed temps, I now print at 95C bed temp for the first layer (then drop to 90C) and get reliable adhesion that is the right strength where I can break it loose without destroying the glass, but it stays stuck during printing.

As nophead says I think there's a correlation between how "fresh" the application of the slurry is and how reliably you can get the print off. However I have no data to back this up, just a gut feel.

If a print doesn't want to come loose from the bed, forcing it will usually result in the print or the glass breaking. I've had some luck with popping the glass+print into the freezer to thermally "shock" it. A couple cycles between room temp and freezing will help get the part to come loose without breaking anything. This isn't fullproof, I'd say the success rate is somewhere between 60%-70%.

I have found that if I keep re-applying it to replace the bits removed by the objects then it ends up too thick as the ABS accumulates where the bed is not used. Instead now I wipe it with pure acetone to redistribute the ABS that is unused. I only need to put new ABS juice on very occasionally.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I'm trying this ABS juice method but having mixed result.

So far, I'm having the best adhesion with thin juice applied on a cold bed before heating to 90C and printing. It's quite good when the print starts but I can see slight lifting as the print proceeds and gooey strings as the edge lifts. My ABS extrusion is at 200C.

I need help. Should I go even higher temp for the bed? I tried 110 but it's not good, but I think I applied it on a hot bed (acetone evaporated too faster to adhere?)

I'm printing at 0.25mm layer height with the first layer at 0.15mm. Please help! I so tired of losing prints when the things just drop off the bed...

try thicker juice, it should dry to a film. also your extrusion temp seems low for ABS, should be above 230.

Thanks for the response.

I always thought that the lower one can extrude at, the better? Also, does the extrusion temperature affects bed adhesion? I would think bed temp is more critical.

Also, at 200C my bridging is pretty nice and I'm afraid going higher can make my prints go bad.

You could use the slicer to set the extrusion temp higher for the first layer, then back to your standard for the rest of the print. Or just raise the heated bed temp, I can get ABS to stick to plain glass at 110C.

Just like to report back here that I'm finally getting prints to stay on the bed. I used nophead's method but with my bed at 130C for first layer and 100C after. This seems to be the key.

Also, I use moderately thick ABS juice applied on a cold bed. It's still translucent when dried on the bed but you can definitely tell the color of the juice.

Thanks for all the help.

Report:
I had sugar solution (10g over 100ml) and it somewhat works at 100C on glass plate. Not very good, but at least get it going with calibration object.
My MK1 PCB heated bed can't go over 100C even at full power...maybe it works better at higher power. 90 or 95C offers no adhesive force at all with the same sugar solution.

Today I bought another glass plate with PTFE film on it. Now it stick very well at 90C. (maybe it works even at lower temp?) It sticks so well that consider amount of force is needed to remove the printout if not cooled.
No solution needed, just heat and go.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2012 01:12AM by sam0737.

PTFE film? Are you sure? That should be a non-stick coating.

Where did you get it from?

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

It comes preassembled from the seller...a greenish one.

Oh. It also sells tape and luckily the label can be seen clearly: [item.taobao.com]
It is "3M™ Polyester Tape 8992". Ok it's not PTFE. (I guess he messed up with the term somewhat)

It sticks so well without fail so far, and when cooled object can be removed by hand (I am still working with small object, not sure if it will pop up automagically or not). I hope someone could double verify this. And it doesn't seems bloody expensive either. $13 for a roll (1in * 72 yard)

[www.shop3m.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2012 07:47AM by sam0737.

I think that is just the same as PET tape.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I don't have my printer running yet, so cannot comment from testing...

Seems there are two issues here.
1. part needs to adhere to the build plate while printing (at an elevated temp when extruding with a heated bed)
2. part needs to release after printing (when heated bed cools down)

Seems to me that you have discovered a way to use Kapton tape (or other types of tape) that remove easily from the plate. So now its just a matter of finding something that makes the part stick better to the Kaptoon tape (or other).

So, I wonder if the Kapton tape (or any other tape that will release easily from the bed after the print is complete) is not the first part of the equation.

The next part, is how can we inprove the stickiness of the Kapton tape (or whatever) so the part sticks during printing.

So some questions...
What if the kapton tape surface was cleaned with say Isopropyl alcohol (very flammable but evaporates quickly). This was used years ago to clean disk heads.
What about applying some other form of "juice" to the kapton tape (or whatever) so the part sticks during printing.

If you get a part printed on Kapton or any other tape for that matter that adheres too much, the tape doesn't help you remove it.
The tape adhesive is very strong when it has a large surface area in contact and you can't peal it off because the stuck part keeps it flat against the glass.
You will literally tear the tape around the outline of the part if you try and remove it with the part stuckdown.

Usually if I get a stuck part I resort to taking the bed off the printer and moving the plate downwards next to a bench so that a substantial part of the part will strike the bench, this usually pops the part off.

I've been using an extremely dilute abs juice, just barely enough plastic in it to look cloudy on the surface when it's applied on top of PET tape (because it's what happened to be on the build plate), and it sicks well and I have yet to have an issue with it releasing.

@gtg252b

I've found a few solutions to the (few) problems I've had with ABS not sticking to heated Kapton:

Make sure your Z-stop calibration is correct. Parts that are squashed harder to the bed stick better.
Raise the bed temperature. It's not too hot unless your print is not solidifying.
Raise the extruder temperature. It's not too hot unless your print is not solidifying, or you get smoke from your ABS, or your extruder melts (!).
Wipe the bed with solvent on clean paper towel, and dry it with another paper towel (to de-grease it). The solvent must must be totally oil free. I use Isopropanol, sold as epoxy thinner/cleaner.
Make sure that there aren't any cold drafts.

I take care not to touch the bed with my hands, and I've only needed one solvent wipe down in ~1000 hours of printing. YMMV.

HTH.

Please let us know if you solve it. :-)

BTW, I've sometimes found parts hard to remove from Kapton, but never really troublesome. At worst I let the bed cool, then put something on the bed to use as a fulcrum and carefully lever the part off with a flat head screwdriver.

For anyone that finds Kapton too sticky, PET may be a good choice. It behaves like Kapton but not quite as sticky.

Cheers,

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Leo

leo@RepRapKit.com
[RepRapKit.com]

I have tried a saturated solution of ABS in acetone on glass and it works very well.
I have a glass jar with a screw top into which I put scraps of ABS and acetone. If it is a saturated solution some of the ABS will not be dissolved. I apply it to the glass with a paint brush at any temperature, replacing any that comes off with the printed objects. So far I have had no lifting.

Was and still am having trouble switching over to abs. I think my heat bed may not be able to reach a high enough temp to prevent lifting. I can get it up to about 105C.

I am currently playing around with rafting and the print that is running right now is looking pretty good.

The reason I am posting is to give a thumbs up to the sugar water idea. Seems to be working and combined with the rafting I may have my first successful abs print.

I used to work in comstruction, and have some offcuts of "akril"... [akril.net.au]

It is a splashback material, looks like perspex but less flexible. I was sick of my heated bed (it warped up in the middle when hot. I put a piece of Akril underneath, then turned the whole lot upside down. Alittle abs juice, bed perfectly level. The filament only just touched the bed on adhesion, I had to remove it with a chisel. No juice, just nice clean acetone wipe (Akril isnt affected by acetone). Nice long metal spatula works well. I am now onto my best prints ever!!!!!

A bit more to add to the info-pool. I presently use Rustin's thinners which I had laying around and it releases quite well and consistently. A sharpish blow at the base of the object gets it off of the Kapton tape. I had temporary success with both Isopropyl Alcohol and Flent's lens tissues (probably also Isopropyl Alcohol) but after a few print the adhesion reduced and no amount of alcohol cleaning could get it back. I have got some Acetone now, but won't change my method until the thinners weakens.

Your mileage may (and probably will) vary

Mike

I, too, have tried several things to make the prints stick tight enough so that they do not warp but not too tight so that they won't come off. Still trying...!

I'd like to query the people reporting their results here, to clarify if the reported bed temperature is measured on the glass (top or bottom surface) or the thermistor on the heatbed.
I say this because currently I'm printing on a 2mm glass but this creates a temperature difference of 35C from the bottom side (where I am measuring with the thermistor) and the top side where the print stands. Do you see such a big difference between the two sides of the glass in your setup? Maybe the glass I'm using does not conduct heat well.

I see about 20C difference on my smaller machine using a Mk2 heated bed with the thermister in the middle.
I always report what an IR thermometer reads on the surface, but I suspect reporting of bed temperatures is extremely inconsistent.
FWIW I'll also have rolls of filament that adhere perfectly then change rolls and nothing will stick or it's impossible to remove, so I'm not sure how useful other peoples results are anyway other than to ballpark starting points.